TheGrandVizier
Banned
How could Brittany in France survive until the present-day as a fully independent nation
Brittany survives till the present-day
- Thread starter TheGrandVizier
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Max Sinister
Banned
Brittany was fully independent until the 14th century. During early 100yr War there was a war of succession, which the pro-French faction won. After some royal marriage(s) Brittany went to France, and that was it.
Does a Brittany that becomes later after some while (WW1 or WW2 won by the Germans are good candidates either) count too?
Does a Brittany that becomes later after some while (WW1 or WW2 won by the Germans are good candidates either) count too?
I had an idea of a slower advance into France by Germany, and the result being a Bretagine fascist puppet state being established until D-Day etc.
But it was fairly implausable
perhaps after WW2, but not after OTL WW1. perhaps in a second War between a defeated France and Germany, analogous to OTLWW2...
It'd be not long after the 100YW I'd think. Make England win the war and a powerful united France will reign in the escaping duchies. Make France win it and...well the same will happen as per OTL.
You need to keep the kings of England as a major threat to the French and not the virtual joke they became in the Tudor era.
You need to keep the kings of England as a major threat to the French and not the virtual joke they became in the Tudor era.
Xen
Banned
What if something were to happen where the British and French fought against each other during the First World War. Britain wins, and decides to create puppet states in Bregtane, Normandy and Aquatine? Even if this is highly unlikely, what if they just made one out of say Bregtane? A place for Britain to keep its military presence on mainland Europe.
Maybe we will have a French Hitler?
Maybe we will have a French Hitler?
Not really. At that time, Brittanny was part of France, like any other vassal duchy, just not part of the Royal lands.
Britany had been a direct vassal duchy of the crown of France since 1213, with the wedding of Alix of brittany to Pierre of Dreux and an indirect one ( as vassal to Normandy, which was vassal to France ) since 1113 and the treaty of gisors. Britany became finally part of the royal lands in 1524 with the death of Claude of France, daughter of Anne of britanny and Louis XII
In fact, Britany was an separate country only from 856 ( treaty of Louviers ) to 1113 ( treaty of Gisors ), just above two and a half centuries.
Getting a continuation of an independent britanny is quite difficult, as it would reauire a PoD in the XIth century and likely a destruction of the plantagenet empire. OTOH, a rebirth of britanny as an independent nation is possible but requires a much weaker france. Having Louis XI born an idiot is a good step, but will have huge consequences ( Bourgogne, Bourgogne.... )
while britanny was part of france in the middle ages, so was burgundy, and that was no real impediment towards independent policies. i reckon that yeah, a 100 years war that ended in no clear victory for either side would be best. with england as a threat, and burgundy separating from france, britanny would find it difficult to stay part of france in fact.
and although britanny was independent for only a short time, culturally, there was still a very distinct identity there (is still today). indeed britanny could still have theoretically went her own way till the 18th century.
any later pod seems unlikely though - in ww1 or ww2 britanny is a very loyal part of france and was pretty stiff in resistance to the invaders (although of course a few nationalists sided with the nazis). so pre-1800, any pod could work, but none since IMO.
and although britanny was independent for only a short time, culturally, there was still a very distinct identity there (is still today). indeed britanny could still have theoretically went her own way till the 18th century.
any later pod seems unlikely though - in ww1 or ww2 britanny is a very loyal part of france and was pretty stiff in resistance to the invaders (although of course a few nationalists sided with the nazis). so pre-1800, any pod could work, but none since IMO.
Just have Anne of Brittany marry someone else. Jean D'Albret is the most obvious choice, as he had a claim to the duchy(this match was actually mooted).
Doesn't really change anything. Britany is still part of France and vassal to the crown; it's just not part of the personnal land of the king.
Susano
Banned
*points to France's eastern neighbour* Look at teh HREGN. There you can see how much "belonging to a country" really meant. It was the same in France in th medeival times.
true- at least before Philippe II -. And?
1) the thread is about continuation of an independent brittany. By the time of the wedding of Anne, brittany was no longer independent.
2) The only part vassals of the crown of France which were not made part of France ( even those which later became soverign, like Navarre ) was Flanders, due to it being a habsburg possetion, and even in this case, A lot of it was finaly included in the country ( as much as Richelieu and Louis XIV could conquer ).
So, in order to get an independent brittany you either have to get it not a vassal of France or to weaken France seriously. The later is the surer bet.
TheGrandVizier
Banned
im surprised none of you mentioned our defeat at the battle of Saint Aubin du Cormier in 1532. it was after that that we were definitely annexed by france. another possible thing is maybe a royalist uprising against the revolution to restore an independent brittany. I doubt the Germans or British would restore an independent brittany, since those thougts would have been long gone by the 20th century. they would maybe have opted instead for an occupied france (like Germany in otl after wwii).
GrandVizier
GrandVizier
Fearless Leader
Donor
Another interesting idea would be for Louis XVI and (or) his family to escape to Brittany during the early phases of the French revolution. His arrival would galvanize support from the locals and perhaps induce some troops to join his side. With a unifying figure like Louis XVI or his son, the counter-revolutionary rebels might be in a position to delay the revolutionary forces long enough for the foreign intervention of other major powers.
Brittany would soon become a battleground, and in order to gain independence Great Britain would have to contribute a large number of troops to the region.
If everything goes well, Brittany remains independent and the French Revolutionary Wars are more of a stalemate than anything else. The combined forces of the First Coalition manage to contain Revolutionary France and preserve the Royalist Enclave of Brittany. However it is highly unlikely that Revolutionary France would let the Ancien Regime hold onto it's claims to the French throne. Undoubtedly, Louis XVI or his son Louis XVII would have to cede their claims to the French throne and become solely the kings of Brittany.
Brittany retains close ties to Great Britain due to it's involvement and perhaps inheriting Revolutionary France's limited overseas possessions. Undoubtedly an alliance would have to form between these two nations as Brittany's survival depends on it.
Brittany would soon become a battleground, and in order to gain independence Great Britain would have to contribute a large number of troops to the region.
If everything goes well, Brittany remains independent and the French Revolutionary Wars are more of a stalemate than anything else. The combined forces of the First Coalition manage to contain Revolutionary France and preserve the Royalist Enclave of Brittany. However it is highly unlikely that Revolutionary France would let the Ancien Regime hold onto it's claims to the French throne. Undoubtedly, Louis XVI or his son Louis XVII would have to cede their claims to the French throne and become solely the kings of Brittany.
Brittany retains close ties to Great Britain due to it's involvement and perhaps inheriting Revolutionary France's limited overseas possessions. Undoubtedly an alliance would have to form between these two nations as Brittany's survival depends on it.