Brittany and Anglo-Saxon England under Personal Union

Is it possible for a Duke of Brittany to be a King of England as well and what POD is required for that to happen and what marriages are required and would this union last?.
 
Try Arthur of Britanny :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_of_Brittany

Just have Arthur escape from John's clutches. John being his usual self, the kingdom will fall naturally into Arthur's hands.

Or just kill off John. Richard, being his usual self, won't produce a heir and Arthur will become king.

In't the OP Anglo-Saxon (ie PreNorman) England though?

Perhaps if Brittany and Cornwall are united under an early King you could get an opportunity for an AS King of England to inherit later on. But then it wouldn't the Duchy of Brittany.

The only way I see for the Duke of Brittany to also be the King of England pre Norman Times is for Brittany to fall under the Normans (uniting the duchies) and then for the Norman 'Grand Duke' to conquer England.
 
In't the OP Anglo-Saxon (ie PreNorman) England though?

Perhaps if Brittany and Cornwall are united under an early King you could get an opportunity for an AS King of England to inherit later on. But then it wouldn't the Duchy of Brittany.

The only way I see for the Duke of Brittany to also be the King of England pre Norman Times is for Brittany to fall under the Normans (uniting the duchies) and then for the Norman 'Grand Duke' to conquer England.

Couldn't you have a scenario where the Normans lose (in 1066) and at some point post-1066 this happens?
 

No need for the face, I was just wondering if it meets the plausibility check for such a union to occur.

I mean, why would any atheling (prince) marry a Breton? Brittany isn't really that valuable, if I'm not mistaken.

Not worthless, just...underwhelming.
 
Maybe the other way around.
During the Viking invasions, the count of Poher, Mathuedoi took refuge in England. His son, Alain II conquered Brittany from the Vikings in 939.

In OTL Alain married Roscile of Anjou and had a son called drogo who was basically a puppet of Foulque of Anjou.

Alan II had grown up in England under Edward the Elder and fought in the battle of Brunnanburh. Have him marry Eadflæd, one of Edward's daughters, who became a nun in OTL. They have a few sons.

Alan II becomes Duke of Brittany on schedule and English history goes on as on OTL. Brittany is stronger, however, as his son - let's call him Hoël - is old enough to take over and Foulque Le Noir can't step in.

At some point a Godwinson or some analogue usurps the throne. The Duke of Brittany, let's call him Arthur, then remembers than through his great-grand-mother, he is a member of the house of Wessex and claims the English throne.

The Witenagemot being unimpressed, Arthur gathers a fleet and an army with the help of Gui of Brionne, Duke of Normandy and a bunch of mercenaries from everywhere.

They face the Saxon army in some place in Sussex.

A year later, a very surprised king of Gwynedd is visited by a royal ambassador who tells him that Arthur is finally back and has thrown out the Saxons, at last :D
 
The easiest point of departure is for Richard the Lionheart's brother Geoffrey, Duke of Brittany through his wife, to outlive Richard. He was older than John and therefore had a better claim.

Much earlier, there was a dynastic connection between Brittany and Dumnonia in the far southwest of Britain. I'm pretty sure that there was at least one ruler who held both.
 
Is it possible for a Duke of Brittany to be a King of England as well and what POD is required for that to happen and what marriages are required and would this union last?.

Well, it was not unheard of for Anglo-Saxon kings to marry British/Welsh princesses and inherit their kingdoms. That apparently happened in the case of the Kingdom of Rheged (basically Cumberland in northwest England today). King Oswiu of Northumbria married a princess of Rheged and their son apparently inherited the kingdom, which became part of Northumbria without a struggle. So how about this?

Lets say that King Argant of Brittany (reigned c. 790-795) dies childless. His successor, Erispoe Frodaldus (reigned c. 795-826, cousin of Argant and descendant of Alain Hir), has one daughter and no sons (historically he had a son named Nominoe who later became King of Brittany). Let's name her Marmoec. Ecgbehrt of Wessex, who spent some time in exile at the court of Charlemagne, meets Marmoec during a visit by Charlemagne to the Breton court. He marries Marmoec in the year 799, and their son (lets call him Aethelwulf, like his OTL counterpart who succeeded Ecgbehrt in OTL) inherits the crown of Brittany in 826, with the support of both Ecgbehrt and King Louis the Pious of the Franks, when Erispoe Frodaldus dies. When Ecgbehrt dies in 839, Aethelwulf inherits in Wessex as well.

Over the following decades, Brittany becomes the permanent possession of the heir to the throne of Wessex, kind of like Wales became the inheritance of the future king of England, who becomes Prince of Wales. Wessex maintains good relations with the Franks and they don't interfere too much in Brittany. Thus Brittany remains bound in personal union with the monarchy of Wessex.

Because of its ties to Brittany, the Kings of Wessex develop an interest in maritime affairs during the early 9th century, and maintain a fleet which protects the coasts of both Wessex and Brittany. Both end up coming out much better when the Viking invasions hit in the latter half of the 9th century, and Wessex ends up, as in OTL, as the only surviving kingdom among the former Anglo-Saxon realms. Under King Eahlmund the Great and his sons (the ATL counterpart of Alfred the Great, who won't be born because Aethelwulf had a different mother in the ATL), the ATL equivalent of the Danelaw is gradually reconquered. Although the Vikings invade Brittany several times, they are never able to conquer it as a result of English support for it. As a result, Eahlmund's grandson, Aethelred the Lucky, ends up in control of all of England, and of Brittany, by the year 900.
 
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No need for the face, I was just wondering if it meets the plausibility check for such a union to occur.

I mean, why would any atheling (prince) marry a Breton? Brittany isn't really that valuable, if I'm not mistaken.

Not worthless, just...underwhelming.

The face was because I didn't even consider that :D

Well, it was not unheard of for Anglo-Saxon kings to marry British/Welsh princesses and inherit their kingdoms. That apparently happened in the case of the Kingdom of Rheged (basically Cumberland in northwest England today). King Oswiu of Northumbria married a princess of Rheged and their son apparently inherited the kingdom, which became part of Northumbria without a struggle. So how about this?

Lets say that King Argant of Brittany (reigned c. 790-795) dies childless. His successor, Erispoe Frodaldus (reigned c. 795-826, cousin of Argant and descendant of Alain Hir), has one daughter and no sons (historically he had a son named Nominoe who later became King of Brittany). Let's name her Marmoec. Ecgbehrt of Wessex, who spent some time in exile at the court of Charlemagne, meets Marmoec during a visit by Charlemagne to the Breton court. He marries Marmoec in the year 799, and their son (lets call him Aethelwulf, like his OTL counterpart who succeeded Ecgbehrt in OTL) inherits the crown of Brittany in 826, with the support of both Ecgbehrt and King Louis the Pious of the Franks, when Erispoe Frodaldus dies. When Ecgbehrt dies in 839, Aethelwulf inherits in Wessex as well.

Over the following decades, Brittany becomes the permanent possession of the heir to the throne of Wessex, kind of like Wales became the inheritance of the future king of England, who becomes Prince of Wales. Wessex maintains good relations with the Franks and they don't interfere too much in Brittany. Thus Brittany remains bound in personal union with the monarchy of Wessex.

Because of its ties to Brittany, the Kings of Wessex develop an interest in maritime affairs during the early 9th century, and maintain a fleet which protects the coasts of both Wessex and Brittany. Both end up coming out much better when the Viking invasions hit in the latter half of the 9th century, and Wessex ends up, as in OTL, as the only surviving kingdom among the former Anglo-Saxon realms. Under King Eahlmund the Great and his sons (the ATL counterpart of Alfred the Great, who won't be born because Aethelwulf had a different mother in the ATL), the ATL equivalent of the Danelaw is gradually reconquered. Although the Vikings invade Brittany several times, they are never able to conquer it as a result of English support for it. As a result, Eahlmund's grandson, Aethelred the Lucky, ends up in control of all of England, and of Brittany, by the year 900.

Nice.
And as a bonus they might forestall Normandy completely :D
 
Well, it was not unheard of for Anglo-Saxon kings to marry British/Welsh princesses and inherit their kingdoms. That apparently happened in the case of the Kingdom of Rheged (basically Cumberland in northwest England today). King Oswiu of Northumbria married a princess of Rheged and their son apparently inherited the kingdom, which became part of Northumbria without a struggle. So how about this?

Lets say that King Argant of Brittany (reigned c. 790-795) dies childless. His successor, Erispoe Frodaldus (reigned c. 795-826, cousin of Argant and descendant of Alain Hir), has one daughter and no sons (historically he had a son named Nominoe who later became King of Brittany). Let's name her Marmoec. Ecgbehrt of Wessex, who spent some time in exile at the court of Charlemagne, meets Marmoec during a visit by Charlemagne to the Breton court. He marries Marmoec in the year 799, and their son (lets call him Aethelwulf, like his OTL counterpart who succeeded Ecgbehrt in OTL) inherits the crown of Brittany in 826, with the support of both Ecgbehrt and King Louis the Pious of the Franks, when Erispoe Frodaldus dies. When Ecgbehrt dies in 839, Aethelwulf inherits in Wessex as well.

Over the following decades, Brittany becomes the permanent possession of the heir to the throne of Wessex, kind of like Wales became the inheritance of the future king of England, who becomes Prince of Wales. Wessex maintains good relations with the Franks and they don't interfere too much in Brittany. Thus Brittany remains bound in personal union with the monarchy of Wessex.

Because of its ties to Brittany, the Kings of Wessex develop an interest in maritime affairs during the early 9th century, and maintain a fleet which protects the coasts of both Wessex and Brittany. Both end up coming out much better when the Viking invasions hit in the latter half of the 9th century, and Wessex ends up, as in OTL, as the only surviving kingdom among the former Anglo-Saxon realms. Under King Eahlmund the Great and his sons (the ATL counterpart of Alfred the Great, who won't be born because Aethelwulf had a different mother in the ATL), the ATL equivalent of the Danelaw is gradually reconquered. Although the Vikings invade Brittany several times, they are never able to conquer it as a result of English support for it. As a result, Eahlmund's grandson, Aethelred the Lucky, ends up in control of all of England, and of Brittany, by the year 900.


The problem is at that time Britanny wasn't unified in any meaningful way. It was divided into a host of squabling statelets which paid (or not) lip service to Frankish suzerainty. Every so often, there was a rebellion by some warlord, who usually got squashed (Morman, then Wiomarc'h). Nominoe was actually appointed in 831 by Charlemagne to rule (as an "imperial emissary") the rather troublesome region.

He managed quite well until the Empire fell apart and the scheming of his neighbor Count Lambert of Nantes forced him to go over to the official (but far away) Emperor Lothar and revolt against Charles the Bald in 843.

So before 843 you can have no inheritance because there is nothing to inherit
 
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