British Tierra del Fuego

Attaboy, Pete! This was what I hoped to see...

...But I didn't post the climate data.

Think I have to defer to you about everything but the Brits' reaction to an attempt by Argentina or Chile to take the Falklands over. It's a 'hell, they can't do that' reaction - you had to have been in the UK in 1982 to believe it.

If there was a British colony on Fuego, there would be an inevitable desire to defend it from an unprovoked attack, however it was established. As far as I'm aware, the only exception was Hong Kong, which was only held for a fixed period.

Anyway, looking forwards to your thread continuing...

Any chance of a time line?
 
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Abdul, I live here in Ushuaia. I went many times to Rio Grande. The only part of the Island which is so rude as you say is the Estrecho La Maire, and that's not always, just sometimes. The other part are very calm, especially those in the Beagle zone. And the way our government finished that problem was building two lighthouses. One in Isla de los Estados, mostly ending the major part of accidents, and the other in the Beagle Channel, just because there are some rocks there and also reveal that Ushuaia is near there.



Tell me Abdul, did you ever visited the Patagonia? Both parts? I guess you didn't because if you ask me I would prefer to live in the forest side or in the windy side, I will tell you in the first one, and if you asked the same questions to a person from Rio Grande, Rio Gallegos or Comodoro, he will say the same, that he prefers the forest. The windy side is pretty awful for living. No wood, very windy, with no green, very little rain, etc. The forest side is far away from being a paradise, but is also far better than the windy side.



A naval base, a coal station, gold in the future, more control over the route which goes through the Magallaleanic Channel, more control over the South Atlantic, a good penal colony if they propose to build one.

The colonization would have to occur before the advent of steam propulsion - therefore a naval base on TdF is inferior in every regard to one in the Falklands. The archipelago is simply too dangerous to ships to be worth establishing a naval station that will be totally inferior to Stanley, and colonists are not going to want to be in the middle of nowhere with little or no communication with the metropole.
 
You know, here we are teached history telling us we were an honour Dominion of the UK, because of our economic relationship. In fact, not only go to the meat. OUR INDEPENDENCE IS LINKED TO BRITISH INTERESTS!! Because they wanted free trade with us they invaded us in 1806 and 1807, they failed but the selfdefence and selfdetermination of the people were among the principal engines of the May Revolution.

Exactly! What you don't seem to get is that this would make it less likily for Britain to support a colony there. They have such vested economic interest in Chile and Argentina that they really don't want to mess up relations or the stability of those investments over a trifle, and since the British have such a hold over Argentina they'd have no need to formally annex a British settlement much like they didn't with Rawson as their citizens and companies would be kept safe by the client nations.

IMO what you need to do to make this plausible is have Britain loose/never acquire one of their other major settler colonies - Canada, Oceania, South Africa, so they need a place to dump people and are much more interested in a new and secure food and resource extraction zone.
 
Exactly! What you don't seem to get is that this would make it less likily for Britain to support a colony there. They have such vested economic interest in Chile and Argentina that they really don't want to mess up relations or the stability of those investments over a trifle, and since the British have such a hold over Argentina they'd have no need to formally annex a British settlement much like they didn't with Rawson as their citizens and companies would be kept safe by the client nations.

IMO what you need to do to make this plausible is have Britain loose/never acquire one of their other major settler colonies - Canada, Oceania, South Africa, so they need a place to dump people and are much more interested in a new and secure food and resource extraction zone.

If it was so why did they occupy the Malvinas, under Argentinean administration at that time and which were already explored and know by Buenos Aires since at least 1800. Why would they bother at first if for them the Patagonia was an eternal semidesertic grassland and before 1870 the only part they only really care was those in the Pampas and north of Rio Colorado, because this were the good ones for cattle. Besides, the real exploration of the Islands started with Piedrabuena in the 1850s, who went there to rescue sailors and supply the missions and only after Argentina stabilized he started with efforts of taking possesion over it. Why would he bother if there were already British there? Also take in account that in 1853 Urquiza with help from Uruguay and Brasil overthrown Rosas. The British can offer their military support in change for the Islands and there you have a way of maintain the economic relationship. And for Chile, the UK can do the same for the Pacific War.
 
You know, here we are teached history telling us we were an honour Dominion of the UK, because of our economic relationship. In fact, not only go to the meat. OUR INDEPENDENCE IS LINKED TO BRITISH INTERESTS!! Because they wanted free trade with us they invaded us in 1806 and 1807, they failed but the selfdefence and selfdetermination of the people were among the principal engines of the May Revolution.

Interesting. Can I ask, out of curiosity, do they teach that as a good thing or a bad thing?

I think that what will happen here is that as more people will live here than in the Falklands, maybe the UK in an attempt to protect its positions decide to call a referendum in both colonies if they want independence with each colony being a new country, to become parts of the UK, to be united as a new part of the UK or be an independent union of both colonies. I think the second option is the most plausible, taking in account the low population and the neighbors they have.

Possibly, but the UK governments during the era when the Empire was dispersed and sent off to go its own way was never very happy with the idea of integrating parts of the Empire into the UK proper. The closest it came was when the Maltese wanted to be integrated and were offered seats in Parliament, but a diplomatic incident created a lot of ill-will towards the British government in Malta and they pulled out. After that, there was never really any enthusiasm for uniting the colonies with Mother Britain. Rather, the UK - depending on your take on history, either deciding that it needed to get rid of the colonies for economic reasons, or feeling betrayed by the American stance on decolonialism and thus feeling like it was "obliged" to give colonies independence whether they wanted it/were ready for it or not - ditched any colony or dominion which was self-sufficient. In this case, depending on the strength of Tierra del Fuego it has two options really. If it's in a position where it could support itself then it will be cast away and told to fend for itself - in this case it might be given the Falklands as a goodwill token unless the UK decides it needs the naval base. Otherwise, it will be kept on in the role of crown colony, the same as places such as Gibraltar and the Falklands OTL. It's possible in this scenario that TdF could eventually become strong enough to request an independence ballot, but in this scenario you'd probably still get the Westminster Parliament saying that it wasn't willing to offer full union, only colonial status or independence.

To have a TL where TdF becomes a full-fledged part of the UK you'd probably need to alter events so that the British were much happier to integrate colonies, which probably requires a much softer take on decolonialism by the Americans when the analogue of the post-war years comes around (i.e. when the realisation that it's time for the Empire to be severed comes). Of course, with this change it's possible that you wouldn't just see one big dumping of the colonies. With a "soft decolonialism" you could see the big and relatively affluent colonies the likes of Egypt, Singapore, South Africa, Jamaica etc etc be given their independence in their own time, and the very poorest colonies, with the weakest political systems and also the places most likely to fall into civil war being kept on by the UK in a sort of "we promise we will get your economy working before we let you go" idea - or at any rate, since the African colonies were a huge money-drain, you could see the UK holding onto a few problem colonies such as the future Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone etc, and those colonies could feasibly - if native African ill-will towards Britain calmed down and the white ruling classes were persuaded somehow to share power with the natives, and if their economies still failed to really properly start up, you could see an interesting thing where these colonies become fully integrated into the UK in a kind of "you missed the independence boat, now times have changed and no-one wants to separate anymore" thing.

Well...that last paragraph really had nothing to do with TdF. I got a bit carried away, sorry. I'm a bit of an Empire apologist at heart. But anyway, hopefully that gave you some idea of what I was trying to say, anyway...
 
Interesting. Can I ask, out of curiosity, do they teach that as a good thing or a bad thing?

They teach it not saying we are independent thanks to UK, but saying they are guilty for some bad things that happened to our country. However, they also teach us that they helped us in many ways, particulary San Martin and against Rosas. It's really a mix, but what you clearly get is that every time something happened here, the British were there, or they did this or threatened to do that. Not saying they teach to hate them, just that we always have very close ties with them. In fact, they don't say British are devil's son or that kind of stuff, just that the Malvinas are ours because all they simply are and that once they give them back to us it's all right.
Las Malvinas son Argentinas!!!:D

Possibly, but the UK governments during the era when the Empire was dispersed and sent off to go its own way was never very happy with the idea of integrating parts of the Empire into the UK proper. The closest it came was when the Maltese wanted to be integrated and were offered seats in Parliament, but a diplomatic incident created a lot of ill-will towards the British government in Malta and they pulled out. After that, there was never really any enthusiasm for uniting the colonies with Mother Britain. Rather, the UK - depending on your take on history, either deciding that it needed to get rid of the colonies for economic reasons, or feeling betrayed by the American stance on decolonialism and thus feeling like it was "obliged" to give colonies independence whether they wanted it/were ready for it or not - ditched any colony or dominion which was self-sufficient. In this case, depending on the strength of Tierra del Fuego it has two options really. If it's in a position where it could support itself then it will be cast away and told to fend for itself - in this case it might be given the Falklands as a goodwill token unless the UK decides it needs the naval base. Otherwise, it will be kept on in the role of crown colony, the same as places such as Gibraltar and the Falklands OTL. It's possible in this scenario that TdF could eventually become strong enough to request an independence ballot, but in this scenario you'd probably still get the Westminster Parliament saying that it wasn't willing to offer full union, only colonial status or independence.

To have a TL where TdF becomes a full-fledged part of the UK you'd probably need to alter events so that the British were much happier to integrate colonies, which probably requires a much softer take on decolonialism by the Americans when the analogue of the post-war years comes around (i.e. when the realisation that it's time for the Empire to be severed comes). Of course, with this change it's possible that you wouldn't just see one big dumping of the colonies. With a "soft decolonialism" you could see the big and relatively affluent colonies the likes of Egypt, Singapore, South Africa, Jamaica etc etc be given their independence in their own time, and the very poorest colonies, with the weakest political systems and also the places most likely to fall into civil war being kept on by the UK in a sort of "we promise we will get your economy working before we let you go" idea - or at any rate, since the African colonies were a huge money-drain, you could see the UK holding onto a few problem colonies such as the future Zimbabwe, Sierra Leone etc, and those colonies could feasibly - if native African ill-will towards Britain calmed down and the white ruling classes were persuaded somehow to share power with the natives, and if their economies still failed to really properly start up, you could see an interesting thing where these colonies become fully integrated into the UK in a kind of "you missed the independence boat, now times have changed and no-one wants to separate anymore" thing.

Well...that last paragraph really had nothing to do with TdF. I got a bit carried away, sorry. I'm a bit of an Empire apologist at heart. But anyway, hopefully that gave you some idea of what I was trying to say, anyway...

Yeah, I got it. Or it becomes self reliant, probably with oil, or it stays as a crown colony like Malvinas. I believe the first would be more possible.
 
Good...it's a thread...

...Reckon we'll have to agree to disagree on the Falklands/Malvinas question, Pete...

...Looked at my ASB timelines, yet? The Islands one may interest you - off-topic here, but what would happen if TdF OTL suddenly found itself minus mainland Chile and Argentina? I'd worked something out for Brazil, but maybe I need the same for Fuego...

...OK, however it exists, Crown Colony of Fuego in TTL, precarious economy post-gold and pre-oil. Not united with UK, but doing its best to maintain itself. Economically in a better position than Falklands once oil's discovered. I'm inclined to believe that oil and gas would be sold to both Chile and Argentina (or exchanged for food supplies) as the nearest suitable market. Probably a lot of Argentine and Chilean firms drilling and extracting under UK licences. This might lead to better relations post-Peronist governments, but not necessarily to integration with one or both countries. I'm just chauvinistic enough to think that the locals might find British rule preferable - a need for indulgent support in crises, maybe?

Might see Fuego used for trainng by the Royal Marines and the Gurkhas, as being most suitable other than Norway. Just an idea. If there's a Mare Harbour, there would certainly be an Ushuaia. Call it HMS Beagle, after Fitzroy/Darwin expedition ship.

This is actually fun...
 
Well looking at climate data I think you're rather off about Southland having better weather than the UK. Ivercargill is a few degrees colder* than Edinburgh in summer and pretty much the same in winter and has 50% more rain, whilst the South East UK is much warmer (av summer/winter temps of 19C/5C) and has about half the rainfall.

UK cities are actually generally warmer and dryer than many other heavily populated places - what they really fail on is hours of sunlight.

Punta Arenas has less the same rainfall as London (about a third of Ivercargill) and roughly the same summer temperature as Ivercargill (14C) and winters a degree or so colder than Edinburgh. I'd say the Scotland:Southland:Terra del Fuego climates are comparable, and use the quite small numbers who went to Southland even when it was part of a major British colony as an argument against extensive settlement of a British base in del Fuego.


I would like to know where you got your temperature figures from as a cursory glance at some Scottish average monthly (not season)figures seems to suggest a colder temperature range. I will concede that your the rainfall figures seem about right. Anyway, the impact of sunshine hours makes for quite a big change I would have thought, on growing and general well being.

Again, there are far more important factors as to why Southland has not grown as perhaps it could have. Things to consider: -

Immigration from the UK (and Europe generally) to NZ was always rather low, compared to Australia or Canada or the US. The colonial government had to engage in extensive efforts to encourage what immigration we did get. Then providing jobs and opportunities for such immigrants once they arrive is quite the task - if they don't exist, then the immigrants would move on to other areas or countries. Internal migration within the empire was very common for the reason that it was reasonably easy to move to areas where the oppotutunity seemed better and given how many alternative opportunities existed within the Empire, in the US and indeed in places like Argentina it isn't surprising that marginal areas, or areas very far from Britain had trouble attracting and keeping immigrants.

The South Island received the initial immigration focus as it proved far easy to overpower the indigenous population, compared to the North Island. Then the gold rushes provided a big pull for capital and immigrants (the latter of which largely moved on after it pettered out). It really wasn't until the mid to late 1870s when the colonial and imperial forces broke the back of Maori resistence in the North Island to settlement by British settlers. Once that occured masses of "free" land opened up to small scale farming very quickly up north, which attracted a lot of internal and external immigration. Whereas in the South, a lot of the land was already sewn up by large landholders, which militated against a settlement of small farmholders.
 
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Immigration from the UK to NZ was always rather low, several orders of magnitude below immigration to Australia or Canada or even the US. The colonial government had to engage in extensive efforts to encourage what immigration we did get. Then providing jobs and opportunities for such immigrants once they arrive is quite the task - if they don't exist, then the immigrants would move on to other areas or countries. Internal migration within the empire was very common for the reason that it was reasonably easy to move to areas where the oppotutunity seemed better and given how many alternative opportunities existed within the Empire, in the US and indeed in places like Argentina it isn't surprising that marginal areas, or areas very far from Britain had trouble attracting and keeping immigrants.

I agree with it being less attractive but numerically it can't be orders of magnitude less, that suggests that the immigration ratio between Australia and NZ was 10:1, which it wasn't.
 
Hello I am actually from the Falklands and find this topic extremely interesting for obvious reasons, I usually look on the site but have never registered but this certainly got my attention.

I agree with many peoples views especially corditeman's and petete123123 (despite fundamental differences).

It is in my opinion that in the unlikely event that the British did found a colony it would be in a similar state to the Falklands today and not massively economically successful or heavily populated. But its a very interesting idea.

The population of the Falklands is 3140 but I still believe its closer to 4000.

I don't think the climate is that similar to Southern New Zealand, as I have been to both, the Falklands is a lot more barren and less 'lush' the NZ. But does have some similarities such as mean temperature.
 
I agree with it being less attractive but numerically it can't be orders of magnitude less, that suggests that the immigration ratio between Australia and NZ was 10:1, which it wasn't.

Hmm, good point, I think I've misused that word. Although it could be that I'm right and it was an order of magnitude, but I have not looked at the figures for a very long time so I'm going to accept your point
 
A Falklander at last!!

Delighted to have come across you. If you've read all the posts, will you look at my Upside Downside Two and see what you think?

Fuego would not be dissimilar, I agree, and Pete certainly posed an intriguing idea. But for an accident of history, we might all be countrymen.

Got to go to work, or I'd say more...
 
Hmm, good point, I think I've misused that word. Although it could be that I'm right and it was an order of magnitude, but I have not looked at the figures for a very long time so I'm going to accept your point

Current

Australia population :22 million
New Zealand population: 4.3 million

1870
Australian population: 1.3million Europeans
New Zealand: 250,000 Europeans

Now as settlement began at roughly the same time and proceeded at roughly the same pace and both countries had similar TFR's I would guess that the split was a but over 5:1.
 

Thande

Donor
Here's an idea: the natives of Tierra del Fuego were treated with great interest in the 1830s and 40s in Britain because they were Stone Age people and anthropologists studied them to learn more about human origins (some of them who had been removed from the island were returned there on the voyage of the Beagle). What if some rich eccentric Briton had decided that their way of life should be protected from European disease and cultural contamination and paid for a quarantine station with guards to prevent the Chileans and Argentines claiming the region? Then after a few years there's a border scuffle and the British government uses this as an excuse to annex it (given that we'd then be heading into the 'getting more colonies for the sake of having more colonies' attitude post-1860s).
 
Here's an idea: the natives of Tierra del Fuego were treated with great interest in the 1830s and 40s in Britain because they were Stone Age people and anthropologists studied them to learn more about human origins (some of them who had been removed from the island were returned there on the voyage of the Beagle). What if some rich eccentric Briton had decided that their way of life should be protected from European disease and cultural contamination and paid for a quarantine station with guards to prevent the Chileans and Argentines claiming the region? Then after a few years there's a border scuffle and the British government uses this as an excuse to annex it (given that we'd then be heading into the 'getting more colonies for the sake of having more colonies' attitude post-1860s).

The British had no such attitude. They were immensely resistant to annexing anything at all and had to be pushed into it by important strategic interests.

Anyone proposing annexation of Tierra del Fuego would be laughed out of the room or treated like a dangerous lunatic.

Britain should not be used as a 'space filling empire'. That's France's job.
 
Britain should not be used as a 'space filling empire'. That's France's job.

Well to be fair once France has started space-filling and Germerica industrialises Britain gets on its post-1880s "Fuck fuck fuck we're losing markets annex everything" splurg. But by then the Southern Cone nations should have the Horn well in hand.

I suppose thats another way to get this scenario - Argentina falls apart in one of its civil wars/is broken by Brazil and Chile is beaten by Peru/Bolivia in the north. In that case Britain will step in the 1860s+ period in to provide security for the commerical operations and to keep other powers out.
 
I don't think the climate is that similar to Southern New Zealand, as I have been to both, the Falklands is a lot more barren and less 'lush' the NZ. But does have some similarities such as mean temperature.
Southern New Zealand is similar to Western Scotland (with the seasons reversed of course). The Falklands are more similar to the Faroe Islands in climate, while Tierra del Fuego itself is comparable to Iceland.
 
Well to be fair once France has started space-filling and Germerica industrialises Britain gets on its post-1880s "Fuck fuck fuck we're losing markets annex everything" splurg. But by then the Southern Cone nations should have the Horn well in hand.

I suppose thats another way to get this scenario - Argentina falls apart in one of its civil wars/is broken by Brazil and Chile is beaten by Peru/Bolivia in the north. In that case Britain will step in the 1860s+ period in to provide security for the commerical operations and to keep other powers out.

If you look at British annexations, you'd be hard-pressed to find one that was grabbed precipitously or in any sort of panic.

Where possible, Britain relied on informal empire - for example Arabia, where the limit of British involvement was treaties that bound statelets to not cede territory to any power, and allow Britain to run their foreign relations for them - and this was limited to places critical to Indian communications.

In Africa, policy was determined by the disastrous invasion of Egypt, which was intended only for "regime change" purposes and was supposed to be extremely transient. The entirety of further acquisitions in Africa stemmed from this event - the rest was acquisition of territory to protect Egypt by protecting the sources of the Nile (out of the fantastic belief that another power could dam the river and destroy Egypt).

The only exception is South African sub-imperialism, which dragged London kicking and screaming behind it.

In the scenario you describe, Britain would arrange for a friendly power like Chile to assume control and be done with it. And I doubt Britain would allow Argentina to collapse - there was way too much capital invested there, and it was too big a source of resources.
 
In Africa, policy was determined by the disastrous invasion of Egypt, which was intended only for "regime change" purposes and was supposed to be extremely transient. The entirety of further acquisitions in Africa stemmed from this event - the rest was acquisition of territory to protect Egypt by protecting the sources of the Nile (out of the fantastic belief that another power could dam the river and destroy Egypt).

The only exception is South African sub-imperialism, which dragged London kicking and screaming behind it.
What were the British doing in Nigeria then? That's nowhere near either the Nile or South Africa...
 
I'm inclined to think that Abdul's opposing the thread...

...Why so vehement about it, Abdul?

If you want an absurdity, consider the War of Jenkins's Ear. Britain's no more immune to illogical behaviour than anyone else. Being British myself, I can say that.

Tierra del Fuego is far from illogical - there are more reasons to settle it in the 1800s than to settle Greenland in the year 1000!

I think the rest of us want to consider what will happen inthe event of British settlement and an eventual Crown Colony, so shall we move progress and discuss it? I'm for having Allan Huckle as the current Governor of a Crown Colony of Fuego, Falkland and the Dependencies.

Any thoughts, folks?
 
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