British Sturmovik?

[Just Leo]

That own goal by the air ministry and the RAF is well known, this an ATL so Fairet get to build their monarch, oh they allso give it decent air passage ways so it does not choke and voila you have the best 2000 pluss hp engine of the war.

It might have been easier to build larger oil passages in the R-R Vulture than induction passages in the Fairey engine, since they were quite an integral part. They also couldn't use sodium-filled exhaust valves for reasons I don't understand. Still and all, engineering changes would have been a snap compared to political changes.

 

[Delta Force]

It might have been easier to build larger oil passages in the R-R Vulture than induction passages in the Fairey engine, since they were quite an integral part. They also couldn't use sodium-filled exhaust valves for reasons I don't understand. Still and all, engineering changes would have been a snap compared to political changes.

What's the reason behind using sodium components in piston engines? I've read about it being used on some racing vehicles, aircraft, and even a few luxury cars, but I'm only familiar with sodium as a nuclear reactor coolant.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

I think Henschel built a version of the same aircraft, with more and bigger guns and a lot more armor plate, the weakest point being identical engines. I seem to recall you didn't think highly of it. The Breguet 700 might have faired better, maybe, on an earlier time frame.

No, the French version was considerably faster and had more powerful engines. The 700 version was quite promising. Plus it had a bomb bay. Plus we are talking about a British Sturmovik, not whether it was a good idea

 

[Andras]

This link has a lot of information collected from battlefield surveys on the effectiveness of aerial attacks against German tanks.

http://mr-home.staff.shef.ac.uk/hobbies/rocket.txt

 

[Just Leo]

No, the French version was considerably faster and had more powerful engines. The 700 version was quite promising. Plus it had a bomb bay. Plus we are talking about a British Sturmovik, not whether it was a good idea

You, as always, make a good subtle point, but the engines used in both were the same engines, warts and all. The Breguet was more bulbous because those bombs were stacked that high, but the Breguet might not have had quite the quoted max. speed with full bomb load, while the Henschel carried its guns in any case. The Henschel carried significant armor and protection, while the Breguet seems not to have such. In any case, lack of localized air superiority was quite deadly for either, requiring not only the doctrine, but the proper weapons, personnel and numbers to achieve it.

 

[Just Leo]

What's the reason behind using sodium components in piston engines? I've read about it being used on some racing vehicles, aircraft, and even a few luxury cars, but I'm only familiar with sodium as a nuclear reactor coolant.

I think it was Sam Heron, early twenties. You can google it. Sodium-filled valves cool the valves better, allowing higher combustion temps, longer life, more power. It was one of the more significant milestones that sort of made the sleeve-valve engines kind of superfluous.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

You, as always, make a good subtle point, but the engines used in both were the same engines, warts and all. The Breguet was more bulbous because those bombs were stacked that high, but the Breguet might not have had quite the quoted max. speed with full bomb load, while the Henschel carried its guns in any case. The Henschel carried significant armor and protection, while the Breguet seems not to have such. In any case, lack of localized air superiority was quite deadly for either, requiring not only the doctrine, but the proper weapons, personnel and numbers to achieve it.

In the 693 the engines were the same, but by 1940-41 the work on the 14N had progressed to generate over 1000hp with 92 octane fuel, so could give 50% more power. That would be the 697 and apparently was a fast as the Bf109E. Not sure if the design could take the Merlin or whether it would require a smaller engine.

The British generally had air superiority wherever they fought from 1942 on, so that's not an issue. The real problem would be ground fire. Not sure if the Bre 693/700 was armored enough to survive that, as IOTL it suffered significant losses to ground fire. However that was partly due to it being a brand new type and the units flying it were working out tactics in the midst of the collapse of 1940.

 

[Just Leo]

In the 693 the engines were the same, but by 1940-41 the work on the 14N had progressed to generate over 1000hp with 92 octane fuel, so could give 50% more power. That would be the 697 and apparently was a fast as the Bf109E. Not sure if the design could take the Merlin or whether it would require a smaller engine.

The British generally had air superiority wherever they fought from 1942 on, so that's not an issue. The real problem would be ground fire. Not sure if the Bre 693/700 was armored enough to survive that, as IOTL it suffered significant losses to ground fire. However that was partly due to it being a brand new type and the units flying it were working out tactics in the midst of the collapse of 1940.

The 14M and 14N engines were chalk and cheese, as were the airplanes to which they could be installed. The 697 was not a version of the 693 so much as the prototype of the 700, a heavy fighter meant to supercede the Potez 631, powered by the 14M. If life were that simple, the Germans had all the 14Ns they needed, in ready-made nacelles to install in the Henschel, if they would have fit. The one example of Breguet 697 was destroyed in 1940, to preclude capture.

Had you said air superiority from 1943 on, it might not be an issue, but there were issues still, in 1942.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The 14M and 14N engines were chalk and cheese, as were the airplanes to which they could be installed. The 697 was not a version of the 693 so much as the prototype of the 700, a heavy fighter meant to supercede the Potez 631, powered by the 14M. If life were that simple, the Germans had all the 14Ns they needed, in ready-made nacelles to install in the Henschel, if they would have fit. The one example of Breguet 697 was destroyed in 1940, to preclude capture.

Had you said air superiority from 1943 on, it might not be an issue, but there were issues still, in 1942.

I thought the Western Desert Air Force was pretty dominant in 1942.

 

[PhilKearny]

But I loved the Minerva! Wait, could that be why Minerva folded?

I think it was Sam Heron, early twenties. You can google it. Sodium-filled valves cool the valves better, allowing higher combustion temps, longer life, more power. It was one of the more significant milestones that sort of made the sleeve-valve engines kind of superfluous.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

I thought the Western Desert Air Force was pretty dominant in 1942.

In the second half. It was improving in the first part & came to dominate later. n January > march 1943 the Axis Af dominated over Tunisia, then abruptly lost that from late March.

 

[Just Leo]

I thought the Western Desert Air Force was pretty dominant in 1942.

DAF fighter equipment was never superior to JG27's 109s, although numbers and doctrine were good. By September/November '42, JG27 was pretty well done. Dominant, in general, doesn't accurately describe the situation.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Reading through here has caused me to think of the doctrine problem, software if you will. The aircraft or hardware, mentioned here have their pros & cons, but none were worth a damm for air support until the Brits acquired a decent system or doctrine for using them. Why not address the question same question to doctrine: WI the BEF came to France in 1939 with the same capability for planing & organizing/controling the full range of tactical air operations as it had in 1943 or 1944?

One huge difference I see is in speed or timeliness to the battles. ie: A German officer criticized the Allied for attacking the Albert Canal & Maas River bridges 48 hours after they had been secured. 'We had plenty of time to set up the FLAK defense.' has he put it. The Faireys & assorted French aircraft were badly shot up & the bridges not hit. Enabling the Allied aircraft, even as poor as the were, to attack the same day the Germans & Belgians were still disputing the bridges (11 May) would encounter far weaker FLAK, but also hit the Germans at a moment the Belgians were still in this fight. (They recaptured one of the three bridges and denied another to the Germans for the day.) The morale effects vs the Germans & in favor of the Belgians plus any physical damage could delay the German right wing a critical day or two with assorted knock one effects on the rest of the campaign.

There are a number of other opportunities where a effective air tactical air doctrine could have large accumulative effects on the campaign.

 

[Just Leo]

Reading through here has caused me to think of the doctrine problem, software if you will. The aircraft or hardware, mentioned here have their pros & cons, but none were worth a damm for air support until the Brits acquired a decent system or doctrine for using them. Why not address the question same question to doctrine: WI the BEF came to France in 1939 with the same capability for planing & organizing/controling the full range of tactical air operations as it had in 1943 or 1944?

The British didn't fight in Spain, and had no book, and did not perceive the need for the book. They called what they had Army co-operation, not combined operations. Britain's Spain occurred in North Africa, and Coningham wrote the book. The Americans copied the book. Having army and air force share headquarters was in the book, and having good comms reaching to the pointed end was in the book. Still, having the hardware helps.

 

[yulzari]

What's the reason behind using sodium components in piston engines? I've read about it being used on some racing vehicles, aircraft, and even a few luxury cars, but I'm only familiar with sodium as a nuclear reactor coolant.

The valve stem is filled with sodium. When the valve is hot the sodium melts and the heat of the valve head (exposed to combustion) generates a circulation in the molten sodium that transfers that heat up the valve stem where it can be passed, via the valve guide, into the cylinder head and thence to the cooling system. Solid valve stems can only pass the heat on by conduction up the solid metal stem. The downside is that the valve stem has to be hollow, this not as strong so a sodium filled stem is fatter.