British Rio de la Plata?

Even so, Brazil probably would not have occupied and annexed the Banda Oriental ca. 1820, because there would not have been a United Provinces-Liga Federal rivalry to stoke things up in the first place, and Uruguay would thus be part of Argentina. Right?.

Probably...

Also, I guess that even if Brazil and British Argentina prove not to be allies any more than OTL Brazil and Argentina, Britain and Portugal could still be the allies they have been for a long time..

I don't see why not.

And I wasn't saying that Britain and Brazil would be allies at all times under these circumstances. But maybe in a war situation like with Paraguay, Brazil and Argentina could cooperate against Paraguay like they did OTL along with Uruguay. And in OTL, there was a rivalry, but not open hostility, for the most part between Brazil and Argentina in the 19th and most of the 20th century. Also in OTL, Britain and Brazil did have their differences as well, e.g. in the mechanics/timing of freeing Brazilian slaves.

Of course, a tactical alliance between Brazil and a British argentina is not impossible, but it must be explained by ATL motives, not because Britain and Brazil/Portugal were, IOTL, "traditional" allies. IOTL motives won¿t work.
 

yofie

Banned
Another question regarding the effects of a British Rio de la Plata - assuming that the British took over the Mendoza area near Chile as well as the Rio de la Plata, would Jose de San Martin (the OTL hero of Argentine independence) have gone a different course?

In other words, would he have fought with Bolivar in the north of South America and then make his way south to Peru, or would he have gone straight to Peru ca. 1815 to fight the Spanish royalists, or would he have gone first to Chile ca. 1815 to fight with O'Higgins and then go to Peru?

All of this is assuming that the British do not allow San Martin to prepare an army in Mendoza because that would be too dangerous for British South America.
 
One thing worth noting is immigration. What would the addition of another British settler colony mean for the demographics of Canada, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand? There are only so many potential settlers to go around.

While there will certainly be immigration from mainland europe, I doubt Argentina would receive the surge of Spaniards, Italians and Germans that it enjoyed in OTL. There is a certain danger for Britain spreading itself too thin.
 

yofie

Banned
One thing worth noting is immigration. What would the addition of another British settler colony mean for the demographics of Canada, South Africa, Australia, and New Zealand? There are only so many potential settlers to go around.

While there will certainly be immigration from mainland europe, I doubt Argentina would receive the surge of Spaniards, Italians and Germans that it enjoyed in OTL. There is a certain danger for Britain spreading itself too thin.

It wouldn't make such a big difference to the demographics of Canada, Australia, etc. if anything; maybe New Zealand would lose out proportionately a bit more than the others, but that would not fundamentally alter society there. The United States might lose 1-2 million British immigrants, but even that wouldn't be such a big loss for the US - that country got by far the biggest number of British immigrants going overseas in the 1800s.

There would have been been a very significant wave of Germans coming to Argentina, not much less than in OTL if anything; indeed, Canada and Australia as well as the US got big German influxes. Some Spaniards would have come also, and Argentina would have gotten as big a portion of Italians as the US, Canada, and Australia did; you're right, the Spaniards and Italians wouldn't have come to Argentina in as large proportions as OTL.
 
Is the Britishargentina thing a TL on this site?

I'm doing one. But RL cuts my time always, I started travelling a lot because of my job and so I couldn't continue it. Whenever I get time I will continue it. I have had much discussion with a British member, Corditeman, and we discussed much. From British military capabilities, to possible immigration, to where the British will stop annexing territories, the possible effects, the political system, a lot.

If someone intrepid enough wants to do a TL, I still have material.
 
I'm doing one. But RL cuts my time always, I started travelling a lot because of my job and so I couldn't continue it. Whenever I get time I will continue it. I have had much discussion with a British member, Corditeman, and we discussed much. From British military capabilities, to possible immigration, to where the British will stop annexing territories, the possible effects, the political system, a lot.

If someone intrepid enough wants to do a TL, I still have material.
Cool I meant the actual TL from the website.
 

yofie

Banned
Cool I meant the actual TL from the website.

If you're referring to britishargentina.com, which is my site, I'm going to make major revisions to it quite soon - having realized that there's quite a bit of information on my site that needs improvement. So if you get some stuff from it real soon, it may well be changed soon thereafter.
 
I've found some usefull maps, for those interested in this.

Here's a map of the Vicerroyalty. They grey part is tha area of the Intendencia de Buenos Aires that was actually under Spanish control (the rest was under the rule of Amerindian nomads)

Virreinato.png
 
Here's a map of the papulation of the three subunits that ended up forming Argentina IOTL (they were later subdivided, forming the 14 original provinces). It is, of course, an estimate. The area composed by the modern provinces of Formosa, Chaco, most of Santiago del Estero and the North of Santa Fe was also under Amerindian control. We don't now its population, but given the Indians were nomads, its population mut have been low.

Population 1809.jpg
 

yofie

Banned
I've been thinking as of late that once the Anglo-Spanish wars of approx. 1807-1812 in/around present-day Argentina are over, Salta/Jujuy becomes part of what would become Bolivia (because the British lose there as well as in OTL Bolivia). At the same time, Cordoba/La Rioja, the Cuyo, and Tucuman/Catamarca/Santiago del Estero (or greater Tucuman) all become either Spanish-speaking republics with varying degrees of British suzerainty (cf. the Boer republics in South Africa) or British protectorates. Cordoba becomes a British colony soon afterwards because British settlers are interested in settling some areas there, and La Rioja is transferred to either greater Tucuman or to the Cuyo. Both the Cuyo and greater Tucuman remain republics or protectorates (and may - just may - become British colonies for short amounts of time, again like the Boer republics). Eventually, after these two areas attract some British settlers - e.g. because of a boom in, say, wine or tobacco (the main products of the Cuyo and Tucuman, respectively) - they form the Argentine federation ca. 1875-1880 together with Cordoba and with descendant British colonies in the area formerly covered by the River Plate Colony (occupying the area of the Intendency of Buenos Aires and Government of Montevideo as they were from 1783 to 1806).

Meanwhile, Paraguay falls within a few years of the original British invasions of the River Plate to a joint Anglo-Portuguese force (despite the fact that both the British to the south and the Portuguese to the north and east are Paraguayan enemies). This is because Paraguay, from the time of a British takeover of the River Plate, is completely cut off from the rest of the Spanish Empire and is surrounded by the British and Portuguese, and also the Chaco to the west (with its harsh environment and hostile native peoples). The British and Portuguese, once they start occupying Paraguay, support a junta for independence from the Spanish, and Paraguay becomes effectively independent. Because Francia emerges as the leader, however, the British try successfully to overthrow him, with his very isolationist tendencies, since the British want to trade and to provide security for the region. Paraguay then becomes either a British protectorate or a joint British-Portuguese (and then British-Brazilian) protectorate for a long while - kind of like Anglo-Egyptian Sudan. It refuses to join the Argentine federation, and it ultimately gains full independence, I'm thinking in 1954. All this time, Guarani is one of the main languages, existing alongside English and Spanish (and possibly Portuguese too) - kind of like the Philippines. The British also don't allow Solano Lopez to be the leader in the 1860s for fears of regional instability, and the Paraguayan War is thereby thwarted (or at least reduced).

In the 1870s, the British take over much of the Chaco (much like the Argentines did OTL), up until the Monte Lindo River (slightly north of the OTL Argentine-Paraguayan border), and the Bolivians take over the rest of the Chaco. For the first few years, there is a dispute between the British and the Bolivians over the area between the Monte Lindo and Verde Rivers, but that is ultimately arbitrated in favour of Bolivia. The British also take over Misiones (again just like the Argentines did OTL) and the Brazilians annex some lands to Paraguay's north/east like OTL.
 
How serious were they about the whole settler colony idea? As I understood it the main reason that Britain seems to of been interested in the region seems to have been their perennial favourite - trade. They wanted to find some way of opening up the Spanish territories for their goods, if you read up on the British informal empire in South America they were just insanely successful at dominating the region trade and economy-wise in the 19th and early 20th century. Whilst all of Argentina seems like a little much to me is there any way of their taking just Banda Oriental instead? Perhaps Whitelocke doesn't pull British forces out of the entire region, which seems to of been the main reason he got the boot, but instead decides to fall back to Montevideo and the Banda Oriental which is a much more defensible and clearly delineated position behind the Uruguay and Jaquarao rivers.

I think that that is much more realistic than the Brits taking over all of Argentina. That, plus the Strait of Magellan region - including the Falklands/Malvinas and all of Tierra del Fuego (aka Fireland), along with the OTL far southern Chilean mainland - soon afterwards, given the strategic importance of the Strait of Magellan. The rest of OTL Argentina becomes independent, with stronger British influence than OTL (much like American influence in Cuba after the Spanish-American War).
 
Last edited:
Top