British revolution of 1789

flag

French flag is basically Paris colours (no whines about the white), since France basically is Paris (or at least it recognizes itself in Paris).

Now, I know scots and welsh will ask my head on a stake for saying so, but UK basically is England (most of manufacturies, most of wealth, most of people, expecially most of politically involved people), and England is mainly London.
Also, a revolution need to have a support in London, or it would not cause the monarchy downfall.
Thus, how about London colours? (anyone know what colours are they?)
 
Now, I know scots and welsh will ask my head on a stake for saying so, but UK basically is England (most of manufacturies, most of wealth, most of people, expecially most of politically involved people), and England is mainly London.

Not for saying so: for being demonstratably ignorant.

Compared toa randomly chosen one-tenth of any country you like at any time you like, late 18th century Scotland was very overrepresented in all arms of the state. It was sometimes even a subject of resentment from Englishmen, although this had mostly died down by this point.

The EIC was pretty much owned by Scots; a disproportionate number of officers in the American Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars were Scots (to say nothing of the Highland regiments, which were again vastly out of proportion to the population sizes, as was the Irish represnetation throughout the army); and the City, to give a specific riposte, was crawling with Scots.

As for the "politicaly involved people", what gives the idea that Scots are less politically involved? Where do you think Lord Bute came from? Campbell-Bannerman? Gordon Brown? Scots were considered a pillar of support for the regime at this time; on the other hand, radical celebrity Robert Burns was, you guessed it, Scots.

And what's this about manufacturies? The Central Belt was the second industrialised area in the world, and remained an important industrial zone for as long as Britain had important industrial zones. At one point, about one fifth of the hulls in the big blue wet thing had been laid down at the Clyde, IIRC. That's in the future: the Industrial Revolution has by this point only begun to stir, of course; but before the railway and the coal boom, Highland Scotland was actually a centre of British iron production (you've got plentiful hydraulic power, and limitless charcoal). Glasgow was already an important port in the Atlantic trade, and Scotland was no less industrialised than anywhere else.

There's a reason why people occasionally grumble about the "Scottish raj"; and there's a reason why a variety of flags proposed by radicals included Scottish representation. I have personally seen a Reform Society notice instructing the use of red, blue, and green for England, Scotland, and Ireland.

(London's size was also a lot less overwhelming at the time; and while all capitals concentrate artificial imporatnce in a city, Paris is particularly notable case. The Ancien Regime had concentarted power in Paris even moreso than in the person of the king and his ministers. Britain was less centralised, and Radical activity in the early 19th century touched all the big urban centres.)

In conclusion, don't assume that just because Scots are all provincial, chauvinist, and easily offended doesn't men we don't know vastly more about Scotland than you lot. :p
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Wasn't most of the British Reformation started amongst the rising Middle Classes though? People like Erasmus Darwin and the like weren't connected to the Aristocracy so I'm not sure how much would spread across the Continent. Wasn't Hannover itself much more autocratic than Britain?

Yes but it wasn't worse than it neighbours, whom would help stop any revolutionary tendensecies there, beside France in 1789 was a lot less autocratic, than Austria, Prussia, Bavaria, Saxony or Denmark and still the revolution happen in France not in those countries. Frances problem wasn't that it was a autocratic state, but that it has a rising middleclass which was kept out of influence and the king failed in keeping up a loyal power base. The other states I mentioned was a lot more autocratic, but at the same time they was much better at building up a power base, whom they could trust to stay loyal (mostly because they benefited from the strong state).
 
with my head on a spike

:rolleyes: I knew I was going to have trouble in saying that :rolleyes:

All your arguments are true and very cogent.
:)D and as an italian I know what campanilism really mean, and really you cannot blame an italian for being ignorant: we are supposed to be that way :D).

On the other hand, please forget for an instant scottish pride:
In the whole world "England" is used as a synonym for "UK", and "English" is often used instead of "British".
It is wrong, I agree, it is done by ignorant people, but it is done, anyway.
Does not that say something about the matter at hand?
 
Does not that say something about the matter at hand?

Not really. The flags drawn up by various radical groups, as I said, included Scotland if they represented the old symbolism of the home countries at all. It's true that "England" has been used interchangeably with Britain in Britain itself, and I don't really mind this (it's annoying, but no worse than "Holland" for Netherlands or "Russia" for the Soviet Union, although i try to avoid those as well). The point, however, is that every contemporary source suggests things wouldn't be seen this way by British radicals.
 
Of course with much of the old elite fleeing, you will see British know-how being spread over Europe. I could see Prussia beside Hanover receiving lot of these refugees*, more or less kick starting a earlier industrial revolution in Silesia. Netherrland will likely also receive lot of refugees, which will likely result in a major capital infusion, which could help create a small new Golden Age.

I'm not sure the ones fleenig will be that useful. Sure, some people will flee in general, and it depends on how the Revolution comes about. But in OTL the Chartists had a lot of support from elites in urban centers and the middle class.
 
At one point, about one fifth of the hulls in the big blue wet thing had been laid down at the Clyde, IIRC.

I thought it was a lot more. Lemme just check my History notes.
Hey, you are right. 80% in Britain, 20% on the Clyde.

(it's annoying, but no worse than "Holland" for Netherlands or "Russia" for the Soviet Union, although i try to avoid those as well).

The Holland one is really hard to avoid. I didn't know Holland =/= Netherlands till I came here and saw it in a story. Ignorance really.
 
I'm not sure the ones fleenig will be that useful. Sure, some people will flee in general, and it depends on how the Revolution comes about. But in OTL the Chartists had a lot of support from elites in urban centers and the middle class.

So a Hannover based on a more traditional British/German court while Britain itself is more along the lines of a Chartist Republic? Sounds interesting.

As for the colonies, which ones would stick with Britain or possibly go over to the Monarchy?
 

nova2010

Banned
An other proposal flag for british republic

uk rep.jpg
 
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