British public opinion

I'm doing work on a timeline with a mid 1930s Anglo/Italian war that comes from the Abysinnian conflict.

I'm going to give a brass tacks description of the naval situation in the Mediterranean and describe the results of a battle.

This isn't prose and is pretty rough. I'm not looking for feedback on the battle. Its a rough outline not whats going tonappear in my timeline.

I am looking for feedback on how the results would be seen by the British public and the admiralty.

Eastern Mediterranean
British taskforce based around all British battleships in theater are engaged in a running battle with all Italian battleships.

Taranto
7 Italian heavy cruisers in harbour with associated vessels

British blockading force
6 county class heavy cruisers hms hood, reknown, & repulse
Hms Eagle, Argus & Hermes
4 elements
carrier force
3 blockading forces comprised of a battlecruiser and 2 county classes

This is before Swordfish are in service. The British goal is to force the Italian cruisers to come out of taranto.

The British blockade is relatively loose. To avoid Italian forces escaping the British admiral feels a need to split his blockade in 3 squadrons.

The Brits have 2 nights of carrier air raids on Taranto. There is minor to moderate damage to the Italians but no ships have been sunk. 5 cruisers have minor shock damage reducing their engines max speed by 2-3 knots 1 cruiser has lost fire control while another has a turret ruled out of action.

After 2 nights of carrier raids the Italians decide to abandon Taranto fleeing north.

The Italian cruisers encouter one the British blockading squadrons. The battlecruiser and two cruisers are wiped out taking out 5 Italian cruisers and damaging the remaining two. A second British cruiser force and/or carrier raid manages to finish the Italian cripples.

Would the British public reaction interpet this as victory or defeat?

Would the admiralty interpet the Admiral in command as being too risky dividing his force in three blockading elements. Two blockading elements would have suffered much lower casualties had they brought the Italian cruisers to battle.
 

hipper

Banned
I'm doing work on a timeline with a mid 1930s Anglo/Italian war that comes from the Abysinnian conflict.

I'm going to give a brass tacks description of the naval situation in the Mediterranean and describe the results of a battle.

This isn't prose and is pretty rough. I'm not looking for feedback on the battle. Its a rough outline not whats going tonappear in my timeline.

I am looking for feedback on how the results would be seen by the British public and the admiralty.

Eastern Mediterranean
British taskforce based around all British battleships in theater are engaged in a running battle with all Italian battleships.

Taranto
7 Italian heavy cruisers in harbour with associated vessels

British blockading force
6 county class heavy cruisers hms hood, reknown, & repulse
Hms Eagle, Argus & Hermes
4 elements
carrier force
3 blockading forces comprised of a battlecruiser and 2 county classes

This is before Swordfish are in service. The British goal is to force the Italian cruisers to come out of taranto.

The British blockade is relatively loose. To avoid Italian forces escaping the British admiral feels a need to split his blockade in 3 squadrons.

The Brits have 2 nights of carrier air raids on Taranto. There is minor to moderate damage to the Italians but no ships have been sunk. 5 cruisers have minor shock damage reducing their engines max speed by 2-3 knots 1 cruiser has lost fire control while another has a turret ruled out of action.

After 2 nights of carrier raids the Italians decide to abandon Taranto fleeing north.

The Italian cruisers encouter one the British blockading squadrons. The battlecruiser and two cruisers are wiped out taking out 5 Italian cruisers and damaging the remaining two. A second British cruiser force and/or carrier raid manages to finish the Italian cripples.

Would the British public reaction interpet this as victory or defeat?

Would the admiralty interpet the Admiral in command as being too risky dividing his force in three blockading elements. Two blockading elements would have suffered much lower casualties had they brought the Italian cruisers to battle.

The loss of a capital ship makes it a Defeat and The admiral who lost a battlecruser to an outnumbered and damaged Italian force would never serve at sea again unless there was some other factor you have not mentioned.
 
In the 30s (1935 ?) what battleships do the Italians have ?

Conte di Cavour and Giulio Cesare are being rebuilt so you only have Andrea Doria and Caio Duilio how do they even attempt to fight the RN without any distractions v Germany or Japan ? Remember that this is pre rebuild so if they ever sight a QE(4 unrebuilt) or Renown or even Hood and N&R they are never going to outrun them and will almost certainly die and even the R class can win any stand up fight even if they cant run them down.

With such superiority in Battleships 8 faster and more powerful ships (and 5 same speed but more powerful ships), does any of the lighter forces really matter ?

The RN can deploy many (4+ ?) fleets to the Med that each can hunt down and kill any Italian fleet they meet.

The RM will spend the war in Italy and the British army defeats the Italian forces in north Africa cut off from resupply (as OTl but worse Italian performance due to less supplies and no DAK)
 
Last edited:
In the 30s (1935 ?) what battleships do the Italians have ?

Conte di Cavour and Giulio Cesare are being rebuilt so you only have Andrea Doria and Caio Duilio how do they even attempt to fight the RN without any distractions v Germany or Japan ? Remember that this is pre rebuild so if they ever sight a QE(4 unrebuilt) or Renown or even Hood and N&R they are never going to outrun them and will almost certainly die and even the R class can win any stand up fight even if they cant run them down.

With such superiority in Battleships 8 faster and more powerful ships (and 5 same speed but more powerful ships), does any of the lighter forces really matter ?

The RN can deploy many (4+ ?) fleets to the Med that each can hunt down and kill any Italian fleet they meet.

The RM will spend the war in Italy and the British army defeats the Italian forces in north Africa cut off from resupply (as OTl but worse Italian performance due to less supplies and no DAK)

Suffice to say the rest of the timeline takes care of this.

The war came at the worst possible time for Britain. Several ships are undergoing refit and reconstruction. The Home waters will never be completly stripped.

There was sufficient anglo italian tensions that the first rebuilds happened early so Italy have 4 battleships available, Britain have 5 in the theater, more can come but home waters would be left light or refits have to finish.

The 7 heavy cruisers are significant fleet units thats.had to be eliminated.

The loss of a capital ship makes it a Defeat and The admiral who lost a battlecruser to an outnumbered and damaged Italian force would never serve at sea again unless there was some other factor you have not mentioned.
A part of me thought that. The commanding admiral who split his forces into three squadrons could face trouble the again if he split his force in two for the blockade and the Italians escaped he would probably be in more trouble.

Would his reputation be rehabilitated if as well as commanding the fleet be commanded the three ship squadron that faced the 7 Italian cruisers?
 
There was sufficient anglo italian tensions that the first rebuilds happened early so Italy have 4 battleships available, Britain have 5 in the theater, more can come but home waters would be left light or refits have to finish.

But the 5 are each likely to be much more powerful and faster than the Italians ?

The RN ships will all be 15" or 16" v 12" or 12.6" RM this isn't a fight its an execution. (How many Italian rebuilds does it take to kill a Nelson ?)

Even 5 v 4 means the RN can split in to 3 fleets say N+1xQE, Rod+1xQE and Hood, the first 2 can probably defeat the entire RM and the last can defeat 2 and run from 4. (and the RN had 15 battleships in 35 (-2 in rebuild) so I think they send more than 5 with no war with Germany or Japan, even a few old R class and Renown could defeat the KM in 35, pre S&G you are only talking about pocket battleships. So you get a 10 (N&R,H,4QEs,+3Rs) RN v 4(rebuilds) RM ? )

That's totally discounting the advantage in CVs (and 1935 aircraft have shorter ranges so the med is effectively bigger than OTL WW2)/CAs/Cls/DDs (without BofA RN is much larger in numbers in Med than OTL WW2)

I would add what's your POD ? And I don't think you will get any rebuilds pre 1930 LNT as before that you will think that the main powers are going to be building new ships according to WNT scheduled. (much more powerful and would make rebuild Italians bad value) With a 1930 start since you will be rebuilding 2 at a time and they will take time (3 years each batch + year to get ready) by 1935 you are unlikely to have finished more than 2 of them ? (and have the others in dock unusable)
 
Last edited:

Saphroneth

Banned
Pre-Swordfish doesn't matter, the British were planning a carrier torpedo attack when they had the Sopwith Cuckoo as their torpedo bomber back in 1918.

Here they're probably using Blackburn Sharks.
 
But the 5 are each likely to be much more powerful and faster than the Italians ?

The RN ships will all be 15" or 16" v 12" or 12.6" RM this isn't a fight its an execution. (How many Italian rebuilds does it take to kill a Nelson ?)

Even 5 v 4 means the RN can split in to 3 fleets say N+1xQE, Rod+1xQE and Hood, the first 2 can probably defeat the entire RM and the last can defeat 2 and run from 4. (and the RN had 15 battleships in 35 (-2 in rebuild) so I think they send more than 5 with no war with Germany or Japan, even a few old R class and Renown could defeat the KM in 35, pre S&G you are only talking about pocket battleships. So you get a 10 (N&R,H,4QEs,+3Rs) RN v 4(rebuilds) RM ? )

That's totally discounting the advantage in CVs (and 1935 aircraft have shorter ranges so the med is effectively bigger than OTL WW2)/CAs/Cls/DDs (without BofA RN is much larger in numbers in Med than OTL WW2)

I would add what's your POD ? And I don't think you will get any rebuilds pre 1930 LNT as before that you will think that the main powers are going to be building new ships according to WNT scheduled. (much more powerful and would make rebuild Italians bad value) With a 1930 start since you will be rebuilding 2 at a time and they will take time (3 years each batch + year to get ready) by 1935 you are unlikely to have finished more than 2 of them ? (and have the others in dock unusable)

The POD is early 30s. Italy had the first 2 rebuilds early a window for operations with the full fleet and plans to rebuild the remaining two after if there is no war. Its set against the backdrop of Anglo Italian tensions during the early part of the decade and the Italian Navy planning to have the fleet available during Abysinnian crisis incase Anglos Italian tensions devolve to war.

In terms of distractions Germany took advantage of the Anglo Italian conflict to remilitarise the rheinland early, also there is an early anschluss with Austria (the Austrian government was an Italian ally so Italian distraction gives Germany a free hand here).

The French government has withdrawn from the Entente leaving Britain fearing that the channel ports are not in friendly hands.

Theres an incident in the far east that hasnt been fleshed out yet that has Australia begging for fleet assets in Singapore or Hong Kong as a show of force.

Three R class and two QEs are in eastern med some ships are tied down escorting a convoy to Cyprus and some are hunting the Italian battleships which are trying to slip past the escorts and get at the convoy.

Its cat and mouse there.

When i say 5 vs 4 in battleships i mean battleships.

Hood and the other battlecruisers are with the cruisers blockading Taranto.

Anyway Ive work on the full timetable nothing ready to post yet but what i need help is the reaction of the British public and the admiralty to the battle decribed below.

Carriers attacking Taranto on subsequent nights forcing the Italian fleet to leave port.
Blockading force split in 3.
One third of blockading force encounters 7 Italian heavy cruisers.
Initial interception force eliminated in exchange for 5 Heavy Cruisers and crippling the remaining two.
Remainer of blockading force polices up the cripples.

Is it a victory or a defeat to the British public. Just further background the Italians were a lot more war ready as the conflict starts. They had supply depots and troops prepositioned in North Africa. The British are still in a scramble to get men and supplies into the theater. The Italian cruiser force has already in the war managed to intimidate convoys to be withdrawn.

On one hand the Italians are left with only their battleships as a surviving major fleet asset. On the other Britain lost a battlecruiser. I would imagine that amoung historians there will be some level of debate as to the success or failure of this battle.

I suppse it might be a good idea to start with getting the start of the timeline ready for posting and ask for help when i get to this stage? A lot of the timeline exists in outline form atm but nothing ready for posting really.
 
Last edited:
I don't really understand why the RN would go hunting CAs when it could hunt down the BBs ?

Overall the players have in 35,

RN 15 capital ships (-2 in rebuild Repulse and a QE) it then has N&R, H, Renown, 4 QEs and 5 R class.

RM has 2 rebuilds and 2 old

KM has 3 armed CAs that don't really count and some very old PDs.

NM if not friendly with GB has 6 old (This raises the question of why would France not desperately want GB help if Germany is remilitarising ?)

IJN if involved has N&M, 4 slow 14" and 3 fast 14"

That's 13RN v 4RM + any distractions, but not sure that KM has any to distract with, NM would be very unlikely to do anything and IJN is too far away to prioritise no matter what Aus says.
It also dismiss the massive superiority in RN ships compared to all the opponents apart from the IJN, the RN are bigger and with bigger guns and mostly faster.

I just think this runs as OTL apart from the British are much stronger than OTL and the Italians (rather than Axis) weaker.

One third of blockading force encounters 7 Italian heavy cruisers.
Initial interception force eliminated in exchange for 5 Heavy Cruisers and crippling the remaining two.
Remainder of blockading force polices up the cripples.
When and Where ?
Why are the RN going back to a close blockaded given up in 1914 ? With the threat of Subs/Air defence near Italy and if they are not how will they stop the RM CAs running up the coast ?
Night or day and Hood or Renown ? How many RN CA/Cl/DDs involved ?
I don't think the word battlecruisers really suggests how powerful Hood or even Renown are v the Italians in 35 and more so v just CAs rather than the weak Italian battleship, they are really full capital ships especially Hood.
The only way to lose a BC would be to fight a close range at night and get hit by torpedoes but are the RM any good at night fighting v the RN have they actually practised it much ? Not to mention the large number of RN CA/CL/DDs that would be involved.

I think its far more likely that the RN is busy hunting the RM BBs and you end up with a 2 fast +2 slow RM ships v 2 fast + many more medium and slow RN ships that destroys most of them.

As to your Q
a defeat to the British public
anything less than Trafalgar will be a bit disappointing especially losing a capital ship.
 
Top