British Indonesia
- Thread starter Faeelin
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Flocculencio
Donor
Well "Indonesia" is just as much a Eurocentric lump-em-all-together type of name.
Thande: Actually they did see themselves as a cultural unit, insofar as they all acknowledged the same Indianised Malay cultural roots but in many variations*.
In OTL the Indonesians acknowledge themselves as Malays but unlike the Peninsular Malays have clung on more strongly to their seperate cultural subsets i.e. they see themselves as Indonesian by nationality but as Javanese or Boyanese or Minangkabau or whatever by ethnicity.
Just as Indonesia was a useful catchall term in OTL, "East Indies" might serve in TTL.
Plus, it has the advantage of being racially neutral, which will be important due to the large numbers of non-Malay minority groups.
To me, Indonesia says Indian(ized) Islands, whereas "East Indies" is a location term within a larger unit.
I don't agree with New Guinea being a part of the new nation... The Papuans are mostly Christian and Animist, and have a much different culture than the Malay Indonesians. Besides, wasn't Irian Jaya forcibly conquered by Indonesia? Northern Australia is one thing, because the Aborigines there were never very populous, but New Guinea has a very large indigenous population already.
As for the name of the new nation, why not Malaysia for the entire thing? ...Or maybe Austronesia...
As for the name of the new nation, why not Malaysia for the entire thing? ...Or maybe Austronesia...
My suggestion for a name would be Nusantara. Fijians, Tongans, Samoans, and others would object to the use of Austronesia by this proposed polity.
As for New Guinea, I can see reasons both to, and not to include it. Its large Christian population might be a decent reason to include it in the minds of British policy makers. Furthermore, at the time this is set up, New Guinea was not so heavily Christianized.
Flocculencio
Donor
Actually a lot of Indonesians aren't Muslim either- Borneo, for example, has large proportions of Christians and Animists as do some of the other outer islands and Bali, of course is almost completely Hindu.
In fact, IIRC, the overwhelming Muslim population in Indonesia is a relatively modern phenomenon resulting from the dominance of Java whereas historically the areas outside Java and Sumatra weren't Islamicised to the same extent*.
*In fact even in OTL Java is less Islamicised than Sumatra which is less Islamicised than the Malay Peninsula.
Indonesia did conquer Papua- but from the Dutch. It was previously administered as part of the Dutch East Indies.
In TTL, however, if we posit a federal republic you'd be able to keep Papua in peacefully- the main problem in OTL was that Sukarno turned Indonesia away from federalism and made it a unitary republic, centralising power in Java.
Again it's because I was positing a Federal Republic where the various nationalities do have representation. Malaysia was named Malaysia because the ethos of the state is completely bound up with the Malay ethnic identity (non-Malays being effectively second class citizens in Malaysia).
Austronesia might work but that doesn't include the Peninsula (just as Indonesia excludes the Peninsula). The East Indies is a handy catchall term that really does include everyone from Kedah to Papua.
Nusantara is interesting but has the same problem of referring specifically to the Malay world.
Maybe Suwarnabhumi? It's an old Sanskrit name for the East Indies and means the Land of Gold
Hm... Maybe, as suggested earlier, just as "India" is the Western term and "Bharat" is the native name, "Nusantara" would be used by the official government but "Indonesia", "Malaysia", or "East Indies" would be used by the rest of the world.
Indonesia did conquer Papua- but from the Dutch. It was previously administered as part of the Dutch East Indies.
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No, Indonesia gained West Papua more so by fraud than by force of arms from the local ppl, thru the farcical UN-administered 1969 'Act of Free Choice'. During the early 1960s, the Indons did try to invade Dutch New Guinea, but were given a bloody nose by the much better-equipped & trained Dutch forces & their local constabulary- meaning the matter was sent to the UN for resolution, & the UN Security Force (UNSF) monitored the border until such time as the UN had figured out a way for Jakarta to take over the territory in as legit-looking a way as poss. I've posted in the past on the WIs of a concerted Dutch-Indonesian War in the early 1960s over West Papua, or how the free West Papua (OPM) movement could be today just as well-known as East Timor's was.
(quote)
No, Indonesia gained West Papua more so by fraud than by force of arms from the local ppl, thru the farcical UN-administered 1969 'Act of Free Choice'. During the early 1960s, the Indons did try to invade Dutch New Guinea, but were given a bloody nose by the much better-equipped & trained Dutch forces & their local constabulary- meaning the matter was sent to the UN for resolution, & the UN Security Force (UNSF) monitored the border until such time as the UN had figured out a way for Jakarta to take over the territory in as legit-looking a way as poss. I've posted in the past on the WIs of a concerted Dutch-Indonesian War in the early 1960s over West Papua, or how the free West Papua (OPM) movement could be today just as well-known as East Timor's was.
Aren't Indonesians considered Malay in the same way that Austrians are German? They come from pretty much the same cultural and linguistic origin, but have defined themselves as a seperate nationality?
Even disregarding the religious differences between Indonesians and Papuans, the Papuans still have drastically different ethnic, linguistic, cultural, and historical origins from the rest of Indonesia. The only reason I'd see New Guinea united with the rest of the East Indies once independence comes around is proximity, and that's not good enough of a reason in my mind.
Even disregarding the religious differences between Indonesians and Papuans, the Papuans still have drastically different ethnic, linguistic, cultural, and historical origins from the rest of Indonesia. The only reason I'd see New Guinea united with the rest of the East Indies once independence comes around is proximity, and that's not good enough of a reason in my mind.
Flocculencio
Donor
Yeah pretty much. The difference is purely artificial based on the colonial spheres of the British and Dutch.
It all depends on how Papua develops during the colonial period. If large numbers of Malays, Indians and Chinese come to settle, Papua may have much closer ties to the rest of the region than it does in OTL.
This would make a fascinating TL.
But who says that the East Indies necessarily need to break away at all? God knows there are enough 'Commonwealth stay together as a peaceful brotherhood based on universal harmony and love' TLs, maps, and scrawls on dinner-napkins out there; the entire region could be part of the greater Commonwealth, as another India.
Think about it: an Imperial Parliament in New Delhi, where Indonesian and Indian delegates hold most of the seats. The three languages of the British Commonwealth are English, Hindi, and Javanese. Indonesia forms an integral part of the British Commonwealth; Prime Minister Suharto (doesn't necessarily need to be our Suharto), of the Commonwealth Conservative Party, held power for nearly a decade in the 1970s, and Indonesian votes are seen as crucial in the upcoming 2007 elections. British resources and technology have led to massive development in the colonies; Jakarta is the world's largest city, and Indonesians have a life expectancy of over 70...
Nah, too utopian. But it is a nice vision...
But who says that the East Indies necessarily need to break away at all? God knows there are enough 'Commonwealth stay together as a peaceful brotherhood based on universal harmony and love' TLs, maps, and scrawls on dinner-napkins out there; the entire region could be part of the greater Commonwealth, as another India.
Think about it: an Imperial Parliament in New Delhi, where Indonesian and Indian delegates hold most of the seats. The three languages of the British Commonwealth are English, Hindi, and Javanese. Indonesia forms an integral part of the British Commonwealth; Prime Minister Suharto (doesn't necessarily need to be our Suharto), of the Commonwealth Conservative Party, held power for nearly a decade in the 1970s, and Indonesian votes are seen as crucial in the upcoming 2007 elections. British resources and technology have led to massive development in the colonies; Jakarta is the world's largest city, and Indonesians have a life expectancy of over 70...
Nah, too utopian. But it is a nice vision...
Flocculencio
Donor
Trouble is that that adds yet more opportunities for discord to the Union.
Frex, take the case of languages- you mentioned English, Hindi and Javanese. Even in OTL India the government hasn't been able to impose the use of Hindi- everyone in South India sees it as an alien language. Javanese? That gives you more problems. If you're going by the greatest numbers then Bahasa Melayu, the dialect of the Peninsular Malays probably takes it. But Javanese is the literary language of the Malay world. And yet it's an alien dialect to the Boyanese and Achehnese.
I think a Great South Asian Union would be just too unweildy.
Then again, stranger things have happened. Maybe the nationalist spirit of India and the East Indies develops around the idea of a shared Indian heritage. Perhaps when creating a nationalist ideology the Anglicised Malay elites start seeing themselves as the inheritors of a branch of Indian culture, hearkening back to the great Indianised empires of SE Asia.
Maybe there is a chance for a Greater India
I don't know whether Delhi would work as a federal capital- maybe Madras? Or perhaps a number of capitals like S. Africa has. The executive could be in Delhi, the legislative in Singapore, the judiciary in Jogjakarta.
That would be one helluva huge polity- Greater India stretching from the Khyber Pass to Northern Australia.
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Well, even with nationalism, sectarian divides would probably inevitably tear such a union apart; even with the idea of a Greater India, the Hindu/Muslim divide probably makes such an idea impossible.
But it is, admittedly, a helluva polity; nearly a billion voters (and well over that if you somehow include it as the major part of a reformed British Commonwealth), much of Asia, a huge GDP, about a quarter of the world as citizens (and, again, if you include the rest of the British Empire you're verging on a third), and a formidable economic bloc. Politics would be confused, chaotic, and hugely entertaining; probably along Indian lines, with two larger-than-the-rest parties and a vast plethora of tiny regional parties, all in a kaleidoscope of shifting and unstable coalitions.
Yes, there are problems, chiefly that many of its citizens couldn't stand each other for long, but if such a thing could be achieved...well, now I know how the religious view God, or Transformers fans view Optimus Prime.
But it is, admittedly, a helluva polity; nearly a billion voters (and well over that if you somehow include it as the major part of a reformed British Commonwealth), much of Asia, a huge GDP, about a quarter of the world as citizens (and, again, if you include the rest of the British Empire you're verging on a third), and a formidable economic bloc. Politics would be confused, chaotic, and hugely entertaining; probably along Indian lines, with two larger-than-the-rest parties and a vast plethora of tiny regional parties, all in a kaleidoscope of shifting and unstable coalitions.
Yes, there are problems, chiefly that many of its citizens couldn't stand each other for long, but if such a thing could be achieved...well, now I know how the religious view God, or Transformers fans view Optimus Prime.
Flocculencio
Donor
Don't overestimate the Hindu/Muslim divide- it's very much a North Indian thing. In South India and the Malay world (regions where Islam was not spread by conquest) Hindus and Muslims generally get along fine.
Hendryk
Banned
Would the British bring Malays to Australia in large numbers? In Malaysia itself, they preferred to bring in Chinese laborers. Wouldn't they do the same thing in Australia? Either way, of course, the Indian merchant and clerical class would be there regardless.
Flocculencio
Donor
You're probably right, come to think of it. The Malays, being the indigenous population, were generally left to their precolonial occupations in non-plantation agriculture and fishing.
Thus, Northern Australia might well have a mostly Chinese and Indian population.