British Hawaii

Nicole · Dec 2, 2005

Wendell said:
Why not grab NZ while we're down there?

The British are already there... I believe they landed there in 1800.

Nicole · Dec 2, 2005

David S Poepoe said:
A few points:

1. There were no Puritans in Hawaii. There were Calvinist missionaries.
2. Not all of the Monarchs of Hawaii were Calvinist Protestant. King Kalakaua was a member of the Anglican Church. He became a member because of its use of ritual and its ties to Britain.
3. In the 1840s Pearl Harbor was nothing to speak of. It wasn't until the early 1910s that both it and Honolulu Harbor were dredged to permit ships to enter.
4. There were close connections between the Kamehameha Dynasty, the House of Kalakaua and British Royalty. Prince Albert, the only son of Kamehameha IV, was the godson of Queen Victoria.
5. The 1840s are early enough that US involvement could be marginalized.
6. The British could cede Pearl Harbor to the US as part of the lend lease act.

The Puritan comment was simply mentioning that New England still was very religious... And the Puritans were an offshoot of Calvinism anyway

I like the idea of Pearl Harbor being a "Guantanamo Bay on the Pacific" (even though that term would be an anachronism in the 1840s)

anFearGlas · Dec 2, 2005

Brilliant question. There are so many directions this could go in.

Off the top of my head....

1843: British navy seizes Hawaii for Great Britain.
Protest from United States. Us more concerned with Texas/Mexico
GB Allows monarchy in Puppet administration.

1848 Great Mahele allows for private land ownership. Part to Hawaiian Crown. Part to British Crown, balance divided amongst nobles.

1850 Conflict between Anglican missionaries and American Calvinists partly over land ownership results in expulsion of Calvinists for sedition.

1854 King Kauikeaouli dies and is succeeded by Alexander Lihiliho as Kamehameha IV.
Expansion of Sugar plantations increased trade with North America, British Columbia in particular.

1860 British Navy begins policing Whaling Grounds off of Hawaii, Revolt by New England Whaling crews results in temporary capture of Lahaina.

1861 Confederate government plays upon friction between Yankee traders/ Missionaries and Colonial government forces in Hawaii to persuade English support for their cause.

1863- Treaty of Winchester ends American Civil War.
Liholiho dies, Lot Kapuaiwa becomes KamehamehaV

1870s Western Canada development to support Pacific Trade. English engineers expand harbors at Honolulu and Pearl Lake now Victoria Harbor.

1880s Trans Canadian Railroad completed. China trade now flows through O'ahu to western Canada and then By rail to East. proves faster and more efficient than all-sea route.

This pod seems to lead towards a US GB conflict either late in the 19th or early in the twentieth centuries.

Having Hawai'i a britsh possession would be of great benefit in controlof the Pacific and China in particular. I might postulate Anglo- Russian conflicts and or Anglo-Japanese tensions, once again involving China interests.

Highlander · Dec 3, 2005

To make things even more interesting: throw a Confederate States of America into the mix.

Flocculencio · Dec 3, 2005

Imajin said:
I like the idea of Pearl Harbor being a "Guantanamo Bay on the Pacific" (even though that term would be an anachronism in the 1840s)

Well since it's posited that it gets ceded as a military base by the Lend-Lease Act maybe a better analogy would be Diego Garcia.

Alratan · Dec 3, 2005

With a POD this early the details/existance of WWII and hence lend/lease should be in very significant doubt.

Flocculencio · Dec 3, 2005

Alratan said:
With a POD this early the details/existance of WWII and hence lend/lease should be in very significant doubt.

I agree, but that was in response to a specific point made by Imajin.

WW2 is probably completely out of the bag since greater British involvement in the Central Pacific this early on is going to massively affect the development of Japan and China. The Brits might actually intensify their operations in China and, who knows, by the 1880's or 90's, Queen Victoria might be Empress of China as well as of India

Wendell · Dec 3, 2005

Imajin said:
The British are already there... I believe they landed there in 1800.

New Zealand was annexed to Britain by "Royal Proclamation" in 1840. British settlements there to that time were light.

Nicole · Dec 3, 2005

Wendell said:
New Zealand was annexed to Britain by "Royal Proclamation" in 1840. British settlements there to that time were light.

Ah, but British missionaries and the like were very active among the Maori, and Australia is far closer than any islands we can get (New Zealand is pretty isolated, though that also works in our favor)

NZ being part of the US sounds rather like ME7, where it happens eventually (though New Gotland, as it's called, mostly speaks German and Catalan, it decides it likes the US government and wants a role in it rather than being a protectorate)

Wendell · Dec 3, 2005

Imajin said:
Ah, but British missionaries and the like were very active among the Maori, and Australia is far closer than any islands we can get (New Zealand is pretty isolated, though that also works in our favor)

NZ being part of the US sounds rather like ME7, where it happens eventually (though New Gotland, as it's called, mostly speaks German and Catalan, it decides it likes the US government and wants a role in it rather than being a protectorate)

This could be a nicely-speckled Pacific....

Nicole · Dec 3, 2005

Maybe we could divide New Zealand- The North Island goes to the USA, which names it Washington Island or something, and the South Island goes to the British. There is far less population on the South Island in OTL, perhaps in TTL it also sees less settlement and is a protectorate Maori Kingdom similar to what we see in British Hawai'i?

Wendell · Dec 3, 2005

Imajin said:
Maybe we could divide New Zealand- The North Island goes to the USA, which names it Washington Island or something, and the South Island goes to the British. There is far less population on the South Island in OTL, perhaps in TTL it also sees less settlement and is a protectorate Maori Kingdom similar to what we see in British Hawai'i?

That might work too. I like the name Madison Island....Then again, the U.S. might keep theirs as New Zealand.

David S Poepoe · Dec 4, 2005

Imajin said:
Maybe we could divide New Zealand- The North Island goes to the USA, which names it Washington Island or something, and the South Island goes to the British. There is far less population on the South Island in OTL, perhaps in TTL it also sees less settlement and is a protectorate Maori Kingdom similar to what we see in British Hawai'i?

The US was late into entering the Pacific and it mostly concentrated on acquiring those islands, like Wake and Midway, that were on the route to the markets in China. Geopolitically New Zealand is closer to Australia and British India than to any American possession until the seizure of California. Theres no reason to believe that the US would be interested in the South Pacific until the late 1880-90s when they began looking for potential coaling stations.

David S Poepoe · Dec 4, 2005

Another important point is that the US wasn't particularly interested in the South Pacific since the whaling ships from New England spent more time in the Central and North Pacific hunting whales. It appears that by 1848 arctic whaling had become more common.

Wendell · Dec 4, 2005

David S Poepoe said:
The US was late into entering the Pacific and it mostly concentrated on acquiring those islands, like Wake and Midway, that were on the route to the markets in China. Geopolitically New Zealand is closer to Australia and British India than to any American possession until the seizure of California. Theres no reason to believe that the US would be interested in the South Pacific until the late 1880-90s when they began looking for potential coaling stations.

The U.S., from what I understand, was interested in Fiji before the ACW...