British Hanover

One of those interesting aspects of British history is the Personal Union the Monarchy has had with the Electorate/Kingdom of Hanover that lasted for over 100 years. It is not the only mainland European holding, but what is interesting is how such a large territory could be under de jure British control until so recently. Sadly, the Union was only Personal, and the two quietly split apart when Victoria was named Queen, since queens couldn't rule in Hanover, and Hanover fell to Prussi 30 years later.

But what if Hanover stayed British after 1837? Two PODs would likely have to occur.

1. Victoria was a boy, allowing her to take the Hanover throne. This one would cause massive butterflies alone.

2. Salic Law, which prevented Victoria from taking Hanover, was not in effect.

Suppose the latter were to occur. I assume they maintain their relative independence from each other for a while, but what happens when Prussia begins to expand over the German states? How would this effect both the UK and Prussia, along with other affairs of the world?
 
The problem with Hanover was that it had no defensible boarders or areas. Invading armies tended to steamroll right through on their way to somewhere more important (as Napoleon had).

In the 1700s Britain had kept a French army at bay, winning at Minden, but that required a commitment of British troops and British money to purchase or maintain German troops that many British balked at in the 1740s and 50s. To deal with Victorian sized armies would simply be out of the question - imagine a BEF in the middle of Germany with no allies...
 

Nietzsche

Banned
One of those interesting aspects of British history is the Personal Union the Monarchy has had with the Electorate/Kingdom of Hanover that lasted for over 100 years. It is not the only mainland European holding, but what is interesting is how such a large territory could be under de jure British control until so recently. Sadly, the Union was only Personal, and the two quietly split apart when Victoria was named Queen, since queens couldn't rule in Hanover, and Hanover fell to Prussi 30 years later.

But what if Hanover stayed British after 1837? Two PODs would likely have to occur.

1. Victoria was a boy, allowing her to take the Hanover throne. This one would cause massive butterflies alone.

2. Salic Law, which prevented Victoria from taking Hanover, was not in effect.

Suppose the latter were to occur. I assume they maintain their relative independence from each other for a while, but what happens when Prussia begins to expand over the German states? How would this effect both the UK and Prussia, along with other affairs of the world?
Britain could hold onto it, assuming no PoD before the Congress of Vienna, right up to the moment Prussia said "You're not using this, and you have this bit of territory in the south separating the Rhineland from Saxony-Brandenburg. While we're at it, those ports in the North Sea would be great too, so.."
 
Britain could hold onto it, assuming no PoD before the Congress of Vienna, right up to the moment Prussia said "You're not using this, and you have this bit of territory in the south separating the Rhineland from Saxony-Brandenburg. While we're at it, those ports in the North Sea would be great too, so.."
The question always is: Would Prussia risk war with Britain over Hannover?

I know the British didn't realy care for Hannover and probably wouldn't fight a war over it, but it is a very big risk for Prussia to take, fighting the world's superpower. Personally I think Prussia would have left Hannover alone and Hannover would turn into some kind of Luxemburg: German but not part of Germany and possibly over time ending up with its own seperate identity.
 
just before victoria succeds william IV, he has the salic law removed to allow her unto the throne, and as for being surrounded by gemrany?....hanover had ports and coastlines...so britian could reinforce it

its likly to prevent prussia from gaining too far west, especially with prussia wanting to be buddy buddies with breat britian at the time
 
If it was merged into a greater United Kingdom it would do away with its own succession law, and then whether Victoria was male or female would not matter

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
If it was merged into a greater United Kingdom it would do away with its own succession law, and then whether Victoria was male or female would not matter

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

It seems highly unlikely to be merged into the UK. The British parliament didn't like the place and felt the ruling house always put Hannover's interests ahead of its own. They also constantly fretted that association with the place brought European authoritarian impulses into Britain.
 
Easiest point of departure if you don't want to change other things is to get rid of the Salic Law. Her father William IV of the United Kingdom, Wilhelm I of Hanover, signed a new constitution for the kingdom in 1833. Simply have him decide 'Bugger that. If my daughter's good enough to be Queen of the British Empire she's bloody well good enough to be Queen of some small German state.' and have it get rid of the Salic Law as well. What was the local populations affiliations like, did they see themselves more as Hanoverian or as German? From what I can remember unification sentiment was fairly high, and from a simple economic outlook they would be better off with Germany than the UK. The best case outcome that I can see over the long term is that Hanover somehow joins the North German Confederation or German Empire with the same kind of limited autonomy that Bavaria enjoyed, with the government being forced to move to a fully parliamentary monarchy with the monarch becoming merely a figurehead.

The major knock-on of this though is that Bismarck no longer has the funds that he looted from the ruling house of Hanover and the country itself to set up his slush fund to bribe troublesome journalists and politicians. What sort of effect is that likely to have on his rule? It would majorly cut down his room to maneuver I would have thought.
 

Nietzsche

Banned
The question always is: Would Prussia risk war with Britain over Hannover?

I know the British didn't realy care for Hannover and probably wouldn't fight a war over it, but it is a very big risk for Prussia to take, fighting the world's superpower. Personally I think Prussia would have left Hannover alone and Hannover would turn into some kind of Luxemburg: German but not part of Germany and possibly over time ending up with its own seperate identity.

...

Of course Prussia would go to war for Hannover. The hardest part is defending it. And the Hannoverians put up a paltry resistance against Prussian arms in 66', why would they do better with British support? Getting weapons to them would be nary impossible, let alone getting the population to fight.

To retake Hannover, Britain would need to go through another country. France would never yield, Holland is more likely but not by far, Belgium may, and even then if push came to shove, Prussia & France signed the London Agreement too, either one would pick them up.

Really, you'll need a POD before the Vienna Agreement. If you give Prussia the Rhineland, it's unifying Germany just so it can link railways to the damn thing.
 
Of course Prussia would go to war for Hannover. The hardest part is defending it. And the Hannoverians put up a paltry resistance against Prussian arms in 66', why would they do better with British support? Getting weapons to them would be nary impossible, let alone getting the population to fight.
No they would not. You just don't start war with everyone for no good reason. Certainly not with the strongest nation in the world. There exist no good reason to antagonise Britain by attacking an ally. It would place Britain in the camp of the enemies of Prussia/Germany. Bismarck was smarter than that. He would leave Hannover alone. There are other, smarter ways to get what he wanted (a strong Prussia, not a united Germany).
 
It seems highly unlikely to be merged into the UK. The British parliament didn't like the place and felt the ruling house always put Hannover's interests ahead of its own. They also constantly fretted that association with the place brought European authoritarian impulses into Britain.

Apart from the fact that they were the house of Hannover (Welf), they probably have a bit more to say there. OTOH Hannover had an absentee monarch not the UK. Furthermore would Hannover even want to be merged in the UK.
In other words a personal union leads or can lead to issues in both countries.
 
...
To retake Hannover, Britain would need to go through another country. .


are you people purposfully ignoring the fact that hanover had coastal borders or dont you bother to read up on these things?

even if the prussian managed to fight off the british navy (which is so bordering asb), then britian couldve gone through the netherlands or belgium, or even denmark, as those nations were very friendly, in cases had the same royal dynasty (the king of belgium for instance was the uncle of albert and the queens sort of cousin), and didnt want a united germany on their borders


read up some ok?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Hanover
 
are you people purposfully ignoring the fact that hanover had coastal borders or dont you bother to read up on these things?

even if the prussian managed to fight off the british navy (which is so bordering asb), then britian couldve gone through the netherlands or belgium, or even denmark, as those nations were very friendly, in cases had the same royal dynasty (the king of belgium for instance was the uncle of albert and the queens sort of cousin), and didnt want a united germany on their borders


read up some ok?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Hanover

It wasn't a question of access, though no one trusts Leopold of Belgium as far as they could throw him, but a question of numbers. Britain simply did not have an army large enough to commit to Hanover that could compete numerically with Prussia. Furthermore Hanover's geography does not make it an easy place to defend, which is why the Frenach were able to tramp all over it in the 1700s and early 1800s.
 
It wasn't a question of access, though no one trusts Leopold of Belgium as far as they could throw him, but a question of numbers. Britain simply did not have an army large enough to commit to Hanover that could compete numerically with Prussia. Furthermore Hanover's geography does not make it an easy place to defend, which is why the Frenach were able to tramp all over it in the 1700s and early 1800s.

Agreed. Britain can easily supply an army in Hanover. What it can't do is create an army in Hanover capable of beating the Prussians. The Royal Navy is their strength, but Prussia has no colonies to seize and no supply routes by sea to cut off. The harder the British try to hold on the Hanover the more of a drain it is on the royal treasury and the larger the backlash as they try to increase taxes to make up the loss.
 
Why would Prussia risk war with the world's premier power anyway?
Is it really a worthy price for such an indefensible piece of land?
 

Nietzsche

Banned
Agreed. Britain can easily supply an army in Hanover. What it can't do is create an army in Hanover capable of beating the Prussians. The Royal Navy is their strength, but Prussia has no colonies to seize and no supply routes by sea to cut off. The harder the British try to hold on the Hanover the more of a drain it is on the royal treasury and the larger the backlash as they try to increase taxes to make up the loss.

It wasn't a question of access, though no one trusts Leopold of Belgium as far as they could throw him, but a question of numbers. Britain simply did not have an army large enough to commit to Hanover that could compete numerically with Prussia. Furthermore Hanover's geography does not make it an easy place to defend, which is why the Frenach were able to tramp all over it in the 1700s and early 1800s.
See this here? These people know what I'm going on about. Read that, and then return to this point.

Why would Prussia risk war with the world's premier power anyway?
Is it really a worthy price for such an indefensible piece of land?
What I'm going to do is pose the first question to you in an alternative way, and the second exactly the same, to show you who truly has the most to lay on the line.

Why would Britain risk war with Europe's only feasible anti-French device, anyway?

Is it really a worthy price for such an indefensible piece of land.




And I am quite well aware Bismarck didn't want to unite Germany. He only called it that because 'Prussia' just looks pretentious when it curves around Bohemia like that.
 
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