British, French send ground troops, air contingents to Spanish CW

Is there any way that Britain, France & maybe even Poland could've sent ground troops & air contingents to join the fighting in Spain in 1936-39, similar to the Condor Legion & the Italian Blackshirt divs, or the Russian pilots & International Brigades ? Could there poss have been an earlier war broken out over Spain ? How would a direct allied military involvement in spain have affected their tactics in WWII, provided of course the latter isn't butterflied away ?
 
Is there any way that Britain, France & maybe even Poland could've sent ground troops & air contingents to join the fighting in Spain in 1936-39, similar to the Condor Legion & the Italian Blackshirt divs, or the Russian pilots & International Brigades ? Could there poss have been an earlier war broken out over Spain ? How would a direct allied military involvement in spain have affected their tactics in WWII, provided of course the latter isn't butterflied away ?

For France, with a Socialist government in office at the time of the SCW, it could have happened, though amidst political furore as Conservative parties would probably denounce the move and call Léon Blum, the French PM (at that time he held more powers than the President of the Republic) a lackey of Stalin.

England if anything could send volunteers to Franco - or to a moderate Monarchist movement if there existed one. In OTL, it's Britain's refusal to intervene that made France chose non-intervention as well, so you'd need either a Labour government in London being on the same page as France's Blum or both nations agreeing to support specific parts of the Republic.

Not sure about the impact - tanks were not used in a blitzkrieg in the SCW, so even a Republican victory could end up convincing the Allies infantry support is the way to go. I think the most important lesson would be about the use of bombers at a tactical/operational level.
 

Paul MacQ

Donor
This is the theater that the Germans seemed to have taken much better lessons from than the Italians. Example first us of the 88mm Flak in an anti Armour role was in Late SCW Could Imagine France closing off the Sea to Nationalist's And the War being over faster.

If there are French forces and say getting some MS406 fighters against the Nationalist Bombers and the CR32s not able to do a thing about them, Might be the Italians start getting some lessons. And it was a better match here against Bf109C with 4 MGs than the later and Faster Bf109E it would only face over France in 1940. Alos Tactics that work against the Stubby Russian fighters might not work against other types

Lessons here,
French discover Dive and climb Fighting tactics against Bi planes and allot of respect for the German fighters
Germans get to think the French have some fighting spirit and there Bombers are vulnerable to Cannon armed Fighters they cannot out run
Italians. Mono planes are the way to go and a Aircraft mounted Cannon is a nasty thing


Tanks the Doctrine of the 2 man light Tank with the 1 man Turret might show it's failing early enough to perhaps change French Tank designs, Certainly the need for a good Anti Armour weapon on your Tanks, Char B heavy Tank might also teach the Italians a thing or two also the Hard way

I see it more likely the French going in, Hard to see the British there. Maybe a spat between France and Britain. Nothing major, The other thing holding France out was it was against the Ideal of the league of Nations, Which it was a major force behind. Bit hard getting them in.

Possibly a real stupid Navigation error on the part of some Nationalist Bomber in a night attack Dropping bombs over the boarder, that is possibly enough for France to say enough is enough, Bit hard to think why they would be there close to boarder, But silly mistakes happen, Disoriented Pilots just look at a few German Night fighters Landing in England, when they got lost, Thinking it was a french airfield.

I see Tactical lessons being learned all over the place Strategic ones less so
 
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For France, with a Socialist government in office at the time of the SCW, it could have happened, though amidst political furore as Conservative parties would probably denounce the move and call Léon Blum, the French PM (at that time he held more powers than the President of the Republic) a lackey of Stalin.

Quite possible, but the reaction of the Far Right (Action Française and Co) would have been violent.
 
For sure.
But I was thinking to more traditional actions, like mass rallies and demonstrations, maybe even Riots like 02/06/1934.
 
The first and foremost change would be no non-intervention treaty, meaning the Republicans could buy arms on the open market (they had a sizable gold reserve that ended up in Stalin's hands) which means they do not need Stalin. A lot of the latin American countries supported the Republic - OTL, they fronted for a lot of arms purchases to get around the non-intervention treaty.

If the Republicans can buy arms for Bilbao, it is quite possible that the Basque will not switch sides, as the Republican north does not fall.

The influx of volunteers, support and arms for the Republic will be much, much larger without the British and French navies maintaining the non-intervention blockade.

The Republicans can probably win in this scenario, especially if they do not have to turn to Stalin for support (although they'll have communist supporters anyway), and we'll see a social democratic/anarchist Spain in a rather loose federation (Catalonians and Bansques will have a long and loose leash).
 
might this even endup in a 3 way civil war with the communist splitting of from the republic supported by stalin,the republic forces supported loosely by france and britain and the nationalists by germany and italy?
 

Markus

Banned
Germans get to think the French have some fighting spirit ...

They never doubted that at all! Info to the contrary(Dying for Danzig?) has been taken out of context to put it mildly.

Still, I´m not seeing active military intervention. French cash&carry sales are possible, maybe even a naval blockade of nationalist ports but more would require them to understand the German threat is nothing but a phantom.
 
For sure.
But I was thinking to more traditional actions, like mass rallies and demonstrations, maybe even Riots like 02/06/1934.

Mass rallies and protests are a given, with the Hémicycle erupting in heated debates and a few duels I'd suspect.

Paradoxically, a French intervention would be easier with a Conservative government in place, as it'd win the support of the Left and leave the Action Française isolated (my humble analysis in the Crossfires TL).
 
Yes of course! (this is why I like "Crossfires!")

In fact it would have been a political suicide for Blum, to openly support the Republicans.
He would had been (even more that in OTL!!!) the perfect scapegoat for the Far Right (Jewish, allied to communists, and supporting "anarchist rabble" in Spain...).
 
France openly sending troops to fight in the SCW also opens the clear and distinct possibility of a war with Italy.

Italy has 20,000 soldiers on the ground during the SCW, in the (thin) guise of volunteers. If French troops fight with Republicans, they're bound to engage these troops, and the Marine Nationale is bound to engage Italian vessels bringing reinforcements and supplies.

Should Italy and France collide like that, it may spark a "real" war between the two nations, with Germany either staying on the sidelines (particularly if the two Latin nations clash in 1936-1937) or jumping on the opportunity to defeat France first (if they clash in 1939).

That was what I had in mind when playing the HoI2 game that led to Crossfires, but war didn't happen (and the game engine didn't allow me to start the conflict myself at the time).
 
By open support I was thinking to something like the Condor Legion, or the CTV, not a direct intervention.

Still a conflict between France and Italy over their respective interventions in Spain, would make a great TL!

PS: HOI2 engine is limited when it comes to diplomacy (especially for democracies). Hopefully HOI3 will bring more options.
 
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