British Empire joins Axis Powers WW2

Okay then, how would US adjust to facing Britain and Japan in the Pacific?

I mean in military terms, engagements on land and at sea.

The Americans outclass everything the British have on the sea, the Illustrious class was not comparable to the Yorktown class nor the Lexington class in terms of size or aircraft assembly. Doesn't matter if they build faster and more Implacable classes, they are too late and not even a little bit comparable to the Essex-class.

Since the British would probably send their home fleet to the Pacific to help the Japanese the Americans can rest easy about the Atalantic and maybe transfer a big carrier to the Atlantic Mid1942 after Midway(or something similar). They can counter the much older British battleships left behind in the Atlantic, the 2 North Carolina class battleships and South Dakota classes would stay in the Atlantic, brand new and outclassing and outnumbering the 5 King George V ships. They would probably start building more new ones for the Atlantic as well, Iowa class.

The problem for the US is reach. They would have a hard time reaching towards British territory, especially in the Pacific. Japanese strategic conquest is in the way. UK and Japan Joined they would cause a lot more problems for the American in the early stages, especially if the British could make the Japanese loosen their doctrine and use their cariers more. Combined with British carriers their force is scary and better than the American fleet.

It also largely depends on the answer to my question, what about the dominion?
 
Sorry bud didn't see what you put, I'd imagine they could use Canada to cross over into America possibly.

What do you mean with the Japanese and their carriers? Did they not use them enough?
 
Okay then, how would US adjust to facing Britain and Japan in the Pacific?

I mean in military terms, engagements on land and at sea.

Why would they end up fighting the USA? If GB and Germany (+ presumably Japan and Italy and Vichy French and Spain and the rest of Europe) ally why would the US fight them? Japan doesn't need to attack at PH so who starts it?

Since the British would probably send their home fleet to the Pacific to help the Japanese
WHAT ! why on earth would GB send its fleet to the other side of the earth in the largest navel war in history and leave the home islands undefended?

the 2 North Carolina class battleships and South Dakota classes would stay in the Atlantic, brand new and outclassing and outnumbering the 5 King George V ships. They would probably start building more new ones for the Atlantic as well, Iowa class.
Why don't we go look at the dates on all the ships commissioning? the home fleet will have 5 KVGs + 2 Bismarks + 4? French + 4? Italian + ? Lions + all the 15 old RN ships not so sure that USN can win easily after all 42% is a lot but it isn't over 50%....

I just don't see why PH happens in this time line ? With a axis GB (and therefore DEI/Netherlands) why does Japan need to strike the USA?
 

shiftygiant

Gone Fishin'
This is ASB. The UK would need a fascist coup way before Hitler takes power. So many things would be different, so much flying butter.
The closest you could get would be a fascist coup regime versus a government in exile, and even that would make things totally unrecognizable from OTL.
It's worth noting that even if Oswald Mosley somehow got to No. 10, his policy would have been to keep himself and the country out of it, Franco style.
 
What about the Dominion? Canada, Australia, friggin India. Would we see seperation? Would we see war
It also largely depends on the answer to my question, what about the dominion?
Sorry bud didn't see what you put, I'd imagine they could use Canada to cross over into America possibly.
...Plan Red?

Canada either tries to distance itself from the whole conflict as a neutral (although the Plan Red planners state that unless they were willing to allow the US military to occupy key strategic areas of Canada the country would be invaded anyway) or launches Defense scheme #1 in response to the perceived American buildup, which delays the US invasion and ultimately inflicts some minor harm on the US, but Canada is conquered nonetheless (1930s British doctrine for war with the US viewed Canada as a lost cause off the bat). Canada would inevitably be rolled up by the US but its conquest would take a substantial amount of time (especially if it is the Canadians who launch the initial preemptive strike); the question becomes what would the situation in Europe and Asia be by the time Canada is pacified and the US can turn its attention towards the UK/German/Japanese axis forces?


NOTE: This is already putting aside all good sense; the UK isn't going to join Hitler and co. for a whole host of reasons (ideology, relapolitic/balance of power and oh yeah the hundreds of thousands British men who died fighting the Germans 20 years before). Those arguments go double for convincing the Dominions to go along with this insanity.
 
Sorry bud didn't see what you put, I'd imagine they could use Canada to cross over into America possibly.

No. Britain, even a fascist Britain, isn't stupid enough to pick a fight with the United States in the 1930s or 1940s. What's more, unlike Japan there is NO REASON for them to break with this policy. Britain doesn't need resources, it needs trade, trade the Americans can provide in far greater quantity and quality than the ENTIRE Axis combined. If Britain has to choose between a neutral America and a friendly Japan it will choose the neutral America every time.

But setting that aside, Britain isn't reinforcing Canada. British military planners wrote the entire area off. Canada is too big, too lightly populated, and too weak when compared to its southern neighbor to bother defending. Trying is a suicide mission. Britain's plan was to beat the USN, occupy its Pacific territories, and try to get Canada back in the peace. If the US doesn't agree, or the RN is defeated, which it will be in the end*, Canada is lost.

And setting even THAT aside, why does Canada side with a fascist Britain? Nothing in the OP made the dominions lose their democratic status. I can easily imagine Canada looking at Britain after a coup and washing its hands of the matter, probably even asking the United States to extend the Monroe Doctrine over them if Britain decides to try to force the issue. At that point Britain backs down IMO.

*In the 1940s the US can equal Britain in total tonnage very quickly, and vastly outweigh the RN in just a couple of years. Britain can't spend the amount of money or dedicate nearly as much industrial might to shipbuilding...or anything else come to that, as the US can. Even adding in France, Germany, and Japan and they are still behind.
 
Sorry, but I think this would require an actual alien space bat to pull off. Even if Hitler supplied Edward VIII with enough SS troops to overthrow Parliament and arrest the other members of the Royal Family, they'd never get away with it. The Royal navy and battalions revolt, George VI is proclaimed and calls for a new government, and 'dear David' is lucky if he doesn't get offed outside Whitehall.

And setting even THAT aside, why does Canada side with a fascist Britain? Nothing in the OP made the dominions lose their democratic status. I can easily imagine Canada looking at Britain after a coup and washing its hands of the matter, probably even asking the United States to extend the Monroe Doctrine over them if Britain decides to try to force the issue. At that point Britain backs down IMO.

Agreed. By this point in history, the Dominions are partners to the British government, not colonies.
 
Sorry bud didn't see what you put, I'd imagine they could use Canada to cross over into America possibly.

What do you mean with the Japanese and their carriers? Did they not use them enough?

So you are thinking the dominion will join the UK in the axis. Canada is screwed. Australia and New Zealand are too far away to do anything usefull except help take poseession of the American posessions in the Pacific. India, you gotta say they would detach themselves, or its just too big of a wank.

Yep the Japanese didn't use their carriers enough and perhaps the UK can help them understand the importance of heir large carriers to fight the US fleet. They can actually hold off the US completely for a long time. Hawaii won't fall, but the US will be forced into a hazardous defensive.

Why would they end up fighting the USA? If GB and Germany (+ presumably Japan and Italy and Vichy French and Spain and the rest of Europe) ally why would the US fight them? Japan doesn't need to attack at PH so who starts it?


WHAT ! why on earth would GB send its fleet to the other side of the earth in the largest navel war in history and leave the home islands undefended?


Why don't we go look at the dates on all the ships commissioning? the home fleet will have 5 KVGs + 2 Bismarks + 4? French + 4? Italian + ? Lions + all the 15 old RN ships not so sure that USN can win easily after all 42% is a lot but it isn't over 50%....

I just don't see why PH happens in this time line ? With a axis GB (and therefore DEI/Netherlands) why does Japan need to strike the USA?

Its his scenario. He is saying as soon a Japan attacks, since they see their chances to take control of the pacific the UK will be joining them as part of their alliance. The US will be the only democratic super power left in the world. Why wouldn't they attack? After the defeat of China(gonna happen certainly if India joins), they are going to attack the USSR and use the rest of their forces to attack the US.

Why would you think the Dutch East Indies and Netherlands will join if the UK joins? They can just say no. With UK and Japan in alliance the UK isn't allowed to take the DEI as its in Japanese sphere of influence. There is gonna be fighting in Indonesia for sure.

You are right about the Italian and Geman fleet joining in. I forgot about that. Germany is probably going to finish its carrier, as is Italy. With those two nations added, why would the Home fleet stay home? They can't attack the US coast with it nor can they protect their Atlantic possessions like Bermuda and the Bahamas.

The US is gonna have a really hard time in the seas, but its not impossible.
 
ts his scenario. He is saying as soon a Japan attacks, since they see their chances to take control of the pacific the UK will be joining them as part of their alliance. The US will be the only democratic super power left in the world. Why wouldn't they attack? After the defeat of China(gonna happen certainly if India joins), they are going to attack the USSR and use the rest of their forces to attack the US.
But this isn't the ASB forum to magic a swap and GB has been at war with Germany and Italy for several years (and dependant on USA trade) if you don't go back to much earlier? What can possibly make them change sides,rather than at most just pull put to neutrality?

Why would you think the Dutch East Indies and Netherlands will join if the UK joins? They can just say no. With UK and Japan in alliance the UK isn't allowed to take the DEI as its in Japanese sphere of influence. There is gonna be fighting in Indonesia for sure.
But the DEI is only a colony, policy will be made in the Netherlands (under German occupation) or by the government in exile (London) they now both agree and there is now no hope to liberate the home nation so why would they not do as they are told to (especially as it makes them money and saves having to fight Japan).

You are right about the Italian and German fleet joining in. I forgot about that. Germany is probably going to finish its carrier, as is Italy. With those two nations added, why would the Home fleet stay home? They can't attack the US coast with it nor can they protect their Atlantic possessions like Bermuda and the Bahamas.
The fact that they cant attack very well doesn't change the need to defend and anyway both sides would be fighting naval battles to control islands in-between such as Iceland/etc that would be to useful as airbases for future B29s/etc. Keeping the home fleet home will also allow you to dismantle the Atlantic wall and use the men in the east.
 
But this isn't the ASB forum to magic a swap and GB has been at war with Germany and Italy for several years (and dependant on USA trade) if you don't go back to much earlier? What can possibly make them change sides,rather than at most just pull put to neutrality?

He is just asking for the American military response to a move like that. Relax. I don't know either why this isn't in the ASB section, but it should be and i'm treating it as such. I already gave my logical response, now its off to the fantasy.

But the DEI is only a colony, policy will be made in the Netherlands (under German occupation) or by the government in exile (London) they now both agree and there is now no hope to liberate the home nation so why would they not do as they are told to (especially as it makes them money and saves having to fight Japan).

Dutch Government in exile, if it got any hint of the British giving up, would continue on to Canada, the whole cabinet and royal family(although prime minister De Geer would probably need to be shot). No is no. They'd probably appeal to Canada and US for sympathy of their situation. Caribbean territories of the Netherlands were handed to the US OTL, so they can still cooperate. They would still control the DEI as well.

The fact that they cant attack very well doesn't change the need to defend and anyway both sides would be fighting naval battles to control islands in-between such as Iceland/etc that would be to useful as airbases for future B29s/etc. Keeping the home fleet home will also allow you to dismantle the Atlantic wall and use the men in the east.

German and Italian fleet can defend for the time being, joined by several older British ships and possibly whatever they took from France, Netherlands, etc. The Pacific is the next major theatre, not the Atlantic. Its a long way between the US and England, there is no direct threat of invasion, yet. Iceland would be the logical focus point, but again not really in danger of invasion for a long time. Besides Iceland, there is no staging area for an invasion and you can be pretty darn sure the British and Germans are gonna garison Iceland heavily.
 
Britain doesn't have to turn fascist etc, it just has to adjust its timing a little bit, so it gets involved in the Winter War and invades Norway before the Germans. The Winter war intervention and the Norway invasion both happened in real life but the first was turned back and the second was a few days late. So you have Britain not as an Axis ally but as a co-belligerent at war with Russia and invading neutral countries.
 
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