British army create a universal tank class

marathag

Banned
Was there anything in the UK in marine engine production in 1935 that could have been the Universal Tank engine?
Sea Lion:cool:

Otherwise, the UK bought 575HP Hall Scott V-12 for the Fairmile Motor Launches, starting in 1937. Hall Scott also had a 998 cubic inch inline Six with 265HP@2000 rpm, with 780 foot pounds of torque .
Those were used in everything from Trucks to landing craft
 
BTW I spoke to someone who had looked into Napiers for a book (abandoned) on their aero engines and he tells me that they were selling Sea Lions late in the 1930s but made from old stock and new major parts manufacturing had long stopped by then. The surplus RAF ones were scrap price for a good reason as the RAF had cannibalised anything that would keep their Lions going as long as possible so they would need a lot of work to make them fit and there were not enough parts for that and those in hand at Napiers were earmarked to the Sea Lion programme. Napier, of course, would make new Lions for a big enough order but much machinery was already moved onto the Rapier/Dagger/Sabre work so would have to cover the cost of new machinery. You could have spent the entire tank budget on just the engines.

He also pointed out that Miles were sucking up all the surplus Kestrels to keep Master trainer production going and these soon ran out, hence the substitution of the Mercury and Twin Wasp.

So what was everyone else making in what would be a sort universal tank class of midish 1930s?

The PzIV was at 16 tons, the S35 Somua 20 tons, Bt7 14 tons, M3(Stuart not Lee) 15 tons and the A10 at 14 tons so a we would be looking at a weight in the order of 20 tons and expect a growth to 25 tons..

These were dragged along by 200bhp for the S35, 220bhp for the M3, 300 for the PzIV, 450 for the BT7 and a mighty 150bhp for the A10 which tells you an awful lot about British tank design using road engines. The use of the M3 is perhaps unfair as it was not pre war and the USA was looking to numbers that justified an aero engine but even they had to resort to road engines to supplement the aero ones but they were doubling Cadillac V8s not a couple of modest bus engines. So to pull up to 20 tons 300bhp would work and 450 would allow for weight growth. Hence the enthusiasm for Lion and Kestrel based units. The Nuffield licence built Liberty was @350bhp and pushed too far at 450 bhp. The Russians did a better job with their Liberty V12 at 450bhp. However the Nuffield Liberty did not exist pre war. The Valentine was a sort of mini universal tank which topped out at 16 tons pulled by 200bhp which sets a lower limit. So some sort of POD would be needed to afford a converted aero engine. History suggests 3 possible sources of free capital. One would be Lord Nuffield investing in the Liberty earlier. Another would be the government ordering enough Lions to justify reopening/maintaining a Lion production line for a tank Lion and thirdly Rolls Royce seeing an opportunity to support the development of the Kestrel into the Peregrine by offering a tank Kestrel which would morph into a tank Peregrine later on and may maintain Peregrines for the Whirlwind. All of these would make in the region of 400 bhp from @24 litres.

So the initial Universal tank would weigh @20tons and have @350bhp to power it. I would suggest that a model for it might be a larger Valentine which would allow for a larger turret ring and allow a 3 man turret with the future 6 pounder/75mm ROF gun. The speed would not increase much on the road but the extra torque would let the suspension carry it at a good cross country speed.

As to armament at entry to service it would need to kill opposing tanks and to kill AA guns and dug in MGs. One contemporary scheme was a hull mounted HE gun and a turret mounted AP gun. The other was something AP in @45mm with an HE round and turret mounted for which Vickers might enhance the 3 pounder.

It might be nice to do something about track design. British tracks were prone to breaking and shedding. The Germans found that captured A10s did better on PvII tracks than their own.

Oh yes, make the designers aware that they will be the maintenance and repair team for the official trials and a copy hull/turret will be set on fire with them in it to demonstrate the ease of egress..........I bet that will do wonders for the actual crews in wartime.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
Something I have not found a reason to explain is the A9/A10/Valentine speed issues. The A9 goes 25 mph/40 kph on an AEC 165 hp/123 kw engine at 12 metric tons. Add 2 metric tons and the A10 speed drops to 15 mph/24 kph. The Valentine II with the same engine is 131 hp/ 100 kw at 16 metric tons for 15 mph/24 kph (?). The later Valentine XI has a 165 hp/123 kw diesel at 18.6 tons and goes 15 mph/24 kph.

Does the damn thing have a speed limiter on it? If the issue with the A9 to A10 drop off is added weight, then the Valentine II should be trudging along at 10 mph/16 kph. Did they change gearing? Why doesn't the Valentine XI go faster? Heck, swap in the twin Cadillacs for 220 hp and about a half ton of extra weight.
 

Driftless

Donor
It might be nice to do something about track design. British tracks were prone to breaking and shedding. The Germans found that captured A10s did better on PvII tracks than their own.

I've seen that problem identified in a variety of sources. What was the root cause of the tracks too frequent failures: the connecting pins, the geometry of the links, the material, or ???
 

marathag

Banned
The last new Liberty V-12 production was in 1926 by Packard, and discarded the tooling, as Lincoln did in January 1919 when their war contracts ended.

So all Liberty production till 1939 was on warehoused units that had been sitting around since 1919, and then modified for tank use. The Packard examples was for their modified type, that was an inverted V12.

So Liberty, Lion or Kestrel, brand new tooling would need to be made for WWII production.

Hudson made new tooling to supply Hall Scott engines during the war.

So its not really a problem, and even with Liberty engines, I believe they didn't even have a full set of drawing anymore, and even that needed to be redone.

Nuffield did almost all of the work needed to do a brand new engine, but they chose poorly in picking that old 1918 engine.
 

marathag

Banned
I've seen that problem identified in a variety of sources. What was the root cause of the tracks too frequent failures: the connecting pins, the geometry of the links, the material, or ???
Yes to material of pins and pads, both broke, but mainly pins.

All British tanks were breaking bits til 1942 when things got sorted out with a better Manganese Steel pad, and I'd need to check notes on the different alloy for pins.

This wasn't rocket science, but they botched it, Italians and Japanese did better.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
I've seen that problem identified in a variety of sources. What was the root cause of the tracks too frequent failures: the connecting pins, the geometry of the links, the material, or ???

Also brittle materials resulting in breakage wear of pads.
 
I don't think welded ships became a thing until the '30s so I doubt that the Standards were welded?
The first all-welded ship was apparently the Fulgar which was launched in 1920 by North Western shipyard Cammell-Lairds. Whether there were ships built before this using a combination of riveting and welding I don't know, but I'd be surprised if there hadn't been.


There is an assumption that the Infantry and Cruiser Tank split was a tactically driven choice. What seems to have actually occurred was that the tank industry was tiny. Industrially really tiny. It had to buy it's engines off the shelf and Britain made no really large lorry engines. This left tank designers with two choices from available engine power in the early 1930's. 'Spend' your moveable weight on armour or on speed. You do either but not both. Hence the thick armour slow Infantry tanks and the thinly armoured Cruiser tanks.
Exactly, the army wanted a universal tank but technological and financial challenges interfered. IIRC it was the failure of the experimental A7 and A8 tank programmes which caused this. Aside from some other problems it was the lack of power from the engines available that caused them to make the logical decision to split tank development into two streams.
 
My alternative (shamelessly stollen from another poster on here several years ago, but alas I can’t remember who to give him the credit he deserves) is for a modified version of the Vickers Independent.

The only prototype of the Independent was produced by 1926 and by 1933 and all the secrets associated with the Independent where pinched Vickers must have known that more orders where unlikely.

Here someone has a light bulb moment.
To use it as the basis for a heavy tank for the export market. Getting rid of the 4 machine gun turrets reduces crew numbers and weight (it would also alow for an enlarged main (and only) turret in later models. This also allows the tank to be made shorter and a bigger fuel tank to be fitted. It was already capable of 20mph from its big 370hp Armstrong Siddeley engine. So loosing a couple of tons would alow it to go a bit faster and it should still save enough weight to improve the amount of armour carried. Add in some mid 30’s refinements and hay presto you’ve got a universal tank that would hold its own in the first two years of the war. For extra brownie points it came with a 3 pounder (although someone is going to have to squeeze in a co axel machine gun) in a three man turret.

Would the British army want it? Probably not! But I can see the powers that be wanting to push exports of what where seriously profitable items. So the army gets them so Vickers can use the tag line “the main battle tank of the British Empire”.

How many would likely be produced by the outbreak of war? Assuming a start of production of 1935/6 3-400 doesn’t seam unreasonable.

But more importantly would be Britain trying to design a replacement by the end of the 30’s as the Independent would be considered well past it’s sell by date. Let’s face its a very small leap from the 35t tank I’m describing and an early Centurion!
 
The shortened QF 6 pounder 6 cwt Mk I of single tube construction was introduced in January 1917 in the Mark IV tank, and may be considered the world's first specialised tank gun. It had a 23 calibre barrel with a muzzle velocity of 1,350ft/sec. The original naval gun was 40 calibres long with a muzzle velocity of 1,818 ft/sec.

In 1936 the 50 calibre 2 pounder had a velocity of 2,600ft/sec though an effort was made to replace it with a much more capable weapon starting as early as 1938. But what if the army specified the standard tank gun was to be a 6 pounder? By 1941 the 6 pounder was a 43 calibre gun with 2,800ft/sec velocity. What if this gun was in use from 1936?

By 1938 the 50 calibre gun was available and had a velocity of 2,900ft/sec for AP shells and most importantly 2,700ft/sec for HE.

The BEF had 150 cruisers and 23 Matilda’s with 2 pounder guns. 77 machine-gun armed Matilda 1 & 342 mk6 light tanks. If the 2nd Armoured Brigades VIc lights were exchanged for 6 pounder medium tanks, it would give 233 6 pounder armed tanks and 282 lights. Since the 6 pounder had HE it would’ve made a difference at Arras.
 

Ramontxo

Donor
About the engine there is also a the Bedford 12 cylinders. A conversion of their pre war 6 cylinder truck engine it propulsed the 40 plus ton Churchill quite reliably. Giving 350hp in a 27 tons tank that would mean about 13hp/ton. Not as good as the 650hp Meteor Crusader but probably good enough.
 
If one went to an aero engine there is always the Armstrong Siddeley Panther and Tiger. An existing production line looking for customers when Bristol began stealing their aero engine market. 27/32 litres capacity and perhaps 350/450bhp.

Or from Napiers a forced air cooling Dagger at @400bhp? Again an existing production line looking for trade. The cooling issues in aeroplanes were due to poor cooling airflow design and not inherent to the engine. A noisy beast though at 3,500-4,000rpm.

On another track. The 2 pounder would have existed anyway. It was intended as an anti tank gun and much work went into it's suitability and carriage. It went into tanks because it was there anyway and only need adapting to a tank mounting and was a certain tank killer at the time. The army is not going to want to pay for another new tank killer gun if they can avoid it. Something off the naval production lines or improving the existing 3 pounder are the most likely sources. Beware of assuming you can just mount a naval gun in a tank. A naval gun is less weight restricted and recoil restricted. A tank turret is weight restricted and has only a short space for taking up the recoil. All is not helped by the British should manual elevation which led to internal mantlets to balance the guns and left even less space. If our putative universal tank can have an external mantlet like everyone else then the gun choice is a little easier and allow for future growth. What would be marginally acceptable in wartime would not pass peacetime trials. Try slotting yourself into a Sherman Firefly turret and imagine sharing that space with 2 other chaos and a hulking great 17 pounder breech which will recoil in your lap and then do it being shaken around over rough ground at speed. Crews accepted it to have the kilelr gun but it would pass even 1930's health and safety.

Christie suspension is a gross space stealer and maintenance expander, albeit excellent for high speed. Horstman bogies are swappable units and will cope with normal tank speeds.

The crude concept in my mind at the moment is based upon (morality excluded) experienced crews being more important than tanks. A layout of a front Panther engine mounted to one side parallel to the chassis not across it and driving through a 90 degree spur to a front gearbox etc. The driver to the side of it and the turret to the rear. This allows the 3 man turret crew easy exit to the rear as well as turret hatches and the driver can have a large hatch as the turret is well behind him. At this time having the gun extend beyond the hull was not considered acceptable but this would not be an issue with the rear turret. The height of the engine allows a decent space and the gearbox etc could be accessed by a front panel. Just for amusement shall we call this the A11 Panther Tank............
 
The 2 pounder would have existed anyway. It was intended as an anti tank gun and much work went into it's suitability and carriage. It went into tanks because it was there anyway and only need adapting to a tank mounting and was a certain tank killer at the time. The army is not going to want to pay for another new tank killer gun if they can avoid it.
The 6 pounder tank gun was in existence since 1917 see post #90. They then changes to a 3 pounder, then changed again to a 2 pounder and then again went for the 6 pounder. There’s three totally unnecessary changes.
 
The crude concept in my mind at the moment is based upon (morality excluded) experienced crews being more important than tanks. A layout of a front Panther engine mounted to one side parallel to the chassis not across it and driving through a 90 degree spur to a front gearbox etc. The driver to the side of it and the turret to the rear. This allows the 3 man turret crew easy exit to the rear as well as turret hatches and the driver can have a large hatch as the turret is well behind him. At this time having the gun extend beyond the hull was not considered acceptable but this would not be an issue with the rear turret. The height of the engine allows a decent space and the gearbox etc could be accessed by a front panel. Just for amusement shall we call this the A11 Panther Tank............


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See post #20. Thought a front mounted engine, its chassis is that of a Valentine, so the turret ruing could support a 6 pounder and even the QF 75mm.
 
The 6 pounder tank gun was in existence since 1917 see post #90. They then changes to a 3 pounder, then changed again to a 2 pounder and then again went for the 6 pounder. There’s three totally unnecessary changes.

Agreed just stick to the 57mm cannon not trial and error that go back to best only to realise that its cannot penetrate the new German tanks.
 
The Hotchkiss 57mm 6-Pdr was built in barrel lengths up to 58 calibres apparrently, so there is plenty of room to improve muzzle velocity on it.
 

marathag

Banned
The Hotchkiss 57mm 6-Pdr was built in barrel lengths up to 58 calibres apparrently, so there is plenty of room to improve muzzle velocity on it.
And nothing stopping them from doing what the US did, taking the WWI era 3" AA gun, and redesign the tube to use modern manufacturing methods and alloys to make a functionally identical weapon at 2/3rds the weight of the old gun, and even lighter going to the 75mm M6 gun used in the Chaffee from the older M3 gun, that in turn was lighter than the old 1897 Field gun
 
The Hotchkiss 57mm 6-Pdr was built in barrel lengths up to 58 calibres apparrently, so there is plenty of room to improve muzzle velocity on it.
Only it was not in production any longer and the old stock remaining was owned and hoovered up by the Royal Navy. The ammunition was available throughout WW2 though.

The 6 pounder of WW1 was an expedient choice and no tank killer. The 2 pounder was being made anyway so the bean counters and army saw no need to keep the 3 pounder for new builds as well. They were each a logical choice. The 40mm 2 pounder HE round was as much an oversize grenade as any other in the class but it gave a chance to engage AT guns at a distance and should have been issued. But, like it's contemporaries, it did not match the sights set for AP. The 3" was a glorified mortar with an arching low velocity trajectory. Fit for smoke but little else except at close range so no help with AT guns out of effective MG range and/or fitted with a shield or dug in.

Or go the whole hog with a 25 pounder and sighting for indirect fire. The RA would have a fit.
 
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