British Army adopts M1 Carbine as primary rifle for Normandy

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
  • Start date
The mix of smaller caliber rounds and larger caliber MG rounds is a common situation in the Western and Eastern Bloc armies. (5.56 and 7.62 used in Vietnam as an example).
 
It is now 75 years later. In 1944 it would be met with a great deal of reluctance, and remember the Generals are still expecting a rifleman to be able to engage the enemy at ranges greater than 600 yards even though that is an extremely rare need.
 
With each Squaddies having a 300M FA carbine, likely things won't get as desperate in the first place for the need to keep the LMG fed in those examples.

And reloading link belts in the field is pure desperation.

Vickers Mk1 used cloth belts. They are easily reloaded by hand and there was a tool that allowed them to be reloaded very rapidly which was part of the equipment supplied with the weapon, afaik the only people using disintegrating link for the Vickers were the SADF for their 7.62 NATO barrelled Vickers guns.
 
But they were already doing it. Each section in a British platoon had a Sten gunner in addition to the .303s
3× Platoons (1 Officer and 36 Enlisted each)
→ Platoon Headquarters (1 Officer and 6 Enlisted)

  • 1× Platoon Commander, Second Lieutenant to Lieutenant (OF-1), armed with 1 Enfield or Webley revolver and 1 signal pistol
  • 1× Platoon Sergeant, Sergeant (OR-6), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle
  • 1× Signaller/Batman, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle, mounted on a bicycle
  • 1× Orderly/Runner, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle
  • 1× Mortar Detachment
    • 1× Mortar Commander, Lance Corporal (OR-3), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle
    • 1× Mortar No. 1, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 Sten submachine gun and 1 2-inch mortar
    • 1× Mortar No. 2, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle
→ 3× Sections (10 Enlisted each)
  • Rifle Group
    • 1× Section Commander, Corporal (OR-4), armed with 1 Sten submachine gun
    • 6× Riflemen, Privates (OR-1), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle each
  • Gun Group
    • 1× Section Second-in-Command, a Lance Corporal (OR-3), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle
    • 1× Bren No. 1, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 Bren light machine gun
    • 1× Bren No. 2, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle
    https://www.battleorder.org/uk-rifle-co-1944
 
71060848_2296526917143754_6764391869917954048_n.jpg


Saturday, September 23, 1944

Squadron Sergeant Major Watt, HQ, B Squadron, 1st Wing, Glider Pilot Regiment, takes aim with an American M1 carbine from the first floor front balcony of the Hartenstein Hotel, Oosterbeek, near Arnhem in The Netherlands.

(The photograph was taken by Sergeant D M Smith, Army Film and Photographic Unit)

Sergeant Dennis Smith, wrote: "We have had a very heavy shelling this morning, September 23rd and now the situation is serious. the shelling is hellish. We have been holding out for a week now. The men are tired, weary and food is becoming scarce, and to make matters worse, we are having heavy rain. If we are not relieved soon, then the men will just drop from sheer exhaustion".

Squadron Sergeant Major Watt escaped back to the UK across the river. He was posthumously awarded the US Bronze Star in January 1947 for his actions.

Company Sergeant Major Watt died on 5 December 1944, aged 25 years old, he was amongst a party of Glider Pilots en-route to India in December 1944, when Dakota FL588 from 24 Squadron RAF Transport Command, based at RAF Hendon, crashed on a snowy ridge in Ariege, near Mijanes in the Pyrenees, Southern France.
23 Airmen were onboard, 20 of which belonged to the GPR. Fifteen other men onboard died as a result of the crash.
He is now buried in the Mazargues War Cemetery, Marseilles.

The British 1st Airborne Division headquarters had been established in the Hotel during 'Operation Market Garden' and it is now the Airborne Museum ‘Hartenstein’.

(Photo source - IWM BU 11220)
Army Film and Photographic Unit - Smith D M (Sgt)

(Colourised by Doug)
 
But they were already doing it. Each section in a British platoon had a Sten gunner in addition to the .303s
3× Platoons (1 Officer and 36 Enlisted each)
→ Platoon Headquarters (1 Officer and 6 Enlisted)

  • 1× Platoon Commander, Second Lieutenant to Lieutenant (OF-1), armed with 1 Enfield or Webley revolver and 1 signal pistol
  • 1× Platoon Sergeant, Sergeant (OR-6), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle
  • 1× Signaller/Batman, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle, mounted on a bicycle
  • 1× Orderly/Runner, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle
  • 1× Mortar Detachment
    • 1× Mortar Commander, Lance Corporal (OR-3), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle
    • 1× Mortar No. 1, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 Sten submachine gun and 1 2-inch mortar
    • 1× Mortar No. 2, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle
→ 3× Sections (10 Enlisted each)
  • Rifle Group
    • 1× Section Commander, Corporal (OR-4), armed with 1 Sten submachine gun
    • 6× Riflemen, Privates (OR-1), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle each
  • Gun Group
    • 1× Section Second-in-Command, a Lance Corporal (OR-3), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle
    • 1× Bren No. 1, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 Bren light machine gun
    • 1× Bren No. 2, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 No. 4 Mk. I rifle
    https://www.battleorder.org/uk-rifle-co-1944


So our M1 platoon would look like this!

3× Platoons (1 Officer and 36 Enlisted each)
→ Platoon Headquarters (1 Officer and 6 Enlisted)
  • 1× Platoon Commander, Second Lieutenant to Lieutenant (OF-1), armed with 1 x M1 Carbine + 1 signal pistol
  • 1× Platoon Sergeant, Sergeant (OR-6), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
  • 1× Signaller/Batman, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine , mounted on a bicycle
  • 1× Orderly/Runner, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
  • 1× Mortar Detachment
    • 1× Mortar Commander, Lance Corporal (OR-3), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
    • 1× Mortar No. 1, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine and 1 x 2-inch mortar
    • 1× Mortar No. 2, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
→ 3× Sections (10 Enlisted each)
  • Rifle Group
    • 1× Section Commander, Corporal (OR-4), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
    • 6× Riflemen, Privates (OR-1), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
  • Gun Group
    • 1× Section Second-in-Command, a Lance Corporal (OR-3), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
    • 1× Bren No. 1, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 Bren light machine gun
    • 1× Bren No. 2, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
 
So our M1 platoon would look like this!

3× Platoons (1 Officer and 36 Enlisted each)
→ Platoon Headquarters (1 Officer and 6 Enlisted)

  • 1× Platoon Commander, Second Lieutenant to Lieutenant (OF-1), armed with 1 x M1 Carbine + 1 signal pistol
  • 1× Platoon Sergeant, Sergeant (OR-6), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
  • 1× Signaller/Batman, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine , mounted on a bicycle
  • 1× Orderly/Runner, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
  • 1× Mortar Detachment
    • 1× Mortar Commander, Lance Corporal (OR-3), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
    • 1× Mortar No. 1, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine and 1 x 2-inch mortar
    • 1× Mortar No. 2, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
→ 3× Sections (10 Enlisted each)
  • Rifle Group
    • 1× Section Commander, Corporal (OR-4), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
    • 6× Riflemen, Privates (OR-1), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
  • Gun Group
    • 1× Section Second-in-Command, a Lance Corporal (OR-3), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
    • 1× Bren No. 1, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 Bren light machine gun
    • 1× Bren No. 2, Private (OR-1), armed with 1 x 1 M1 Carbine
From LINK
The Sniper
The sniper was introduced into the War establishment of the infantry battalion in 1943. Originally there were two per rifle company but from November 1944 the battalion snipers were concentrated at Battalion Headquarters. This was probably as a result of the experience in Normandy. Snipers were not only skilled marksmen but were also trained in intelligence gathering.
sniper serjeant
corporal sniper
2 X lance corporal sniper
4 X sniper.

...

Snipers used two types of rifle in 21 Army Group. The most accurate was the older Rifle No1 MkIII SMLE. However in the interests of standardisation most rifles were the sniper version of the Rifle No4 (T). The rifle was fitted with a No32 MkI telescopic sight. Sniper rifles were carefully selected and provided with a breech cover and a felt valise to protect it from the elements and accidental damage. A special sling was also fitted to the rifle to enable it to be braced for aiming and firing.

Snipers used the standard ammunition pouches containing the following
50 X .303” SAA rounds of ammunition selected by the sniper.
5 X tracer bullets
5 X armour piercing bullets
2 X No36 grenades

Other equipment included
A pair of No2 MkII binoculars in a carrying case
A compass with carrying case
A watch
A camouflage net
The sniper could also have a camouflaged Denison smock as worn by paratroops
.
 

Dave Shoup

Banned
Better than spears or throwing rocks. Guerilla's take what they can get their hands on.

Undoubtedly. Wonder what the oldest issue "standard" firearms used in 1939-45 for an organized regular force - as opposed to irregulars like the Ethiopian or Somali guerillas.
 
Undoubtedly. Wonder what the oldest issue "standard" firearms used in 1939-45 for an organized regular force - as opposed to irregulars like the Ethiopian or Somali guerillas.

I believe a number of Volkssturm units were using 1880s BP cartridge guns at the end
 
(Sorry guys, now is probably the time for me to mention that I've started quietly assuming it's best to go with the Owen in .30 carbine/whatever instead of just going with the OP scenario of issuing M1s. A lot of weight, yes, necessitating the ammo bearers equipped with No 5 & 6 rifle.)
How much would the bolt and therefore the gun of an .30 Owen have to weight?
1,311 J (967 ft⋅lbf) v 455 ft⋅lbf (617 J) in a simple blow back operating system.....?
 
View attachment 490855

You don't even have to go that far forward to find British units likely using separate rifle calibre longarms, View attachment 490855
I find it hard to believe that unit gave up it's .303 Brens for M1918a2 BARs.

41 Commando was used as a true raider / recon unit with the USMC Division as its parent unit so it made a lot of sense to use American Weapons

I did read that they pretty much mutinied (most British units do at least once every couple of years) later on when brought back under British admin and told to replace the M1s with the No4 and to be honest I cannot see any British or commonwealth soldier being happy in the same situation.

The No4 is a superb bolt action battle rifle and I cannot fault it for what it is but it is obsolete next to an M1 Garand
 
How much would the bolt and therefore the gun of an .30 Owen have to weight?
1,311 J (967 ft⋅lbf) v 455 ft⋅lbf (617 J) in a simple blow back operating system.....?
There are American gun enthusiast sites that have calculations for hypothetical blowback bolt weights for different calibres based on a formula written by the US Army's machine gun expert from the 1950s; it's a bit take-with-a-grain of salt IMO.

However, the blowback Winchester 1905 and 1907 rifles exist for .32/.35 and .351 respectively.

I've read somewhere that the bolt for the heaviest round is around 2 pounds. .351 is significantly more powerful than .30 carbine. I'll look for solid info on that. (The 1907 rifle weighs 8 pounds overall).
41 Commando was used as a true raider / recon unit with the USMC Division as its parent unit so it made a lot of sense to use American Weapons

I did read that they pretty much mutinied (most British units do at least once every couple of years) later on when brought back under British admin and told to replace the M1s with the No4 and to be honest I cannot see any British or commonwealth soldier being happy in the same situation.

The No4 is a superb bolt action battle rifle and I cannot fault it for what it is but it is obsolete next to an M1 Garand

Of course.

But I can honestly see the same level of discontent if Bren gunners were forced to drop that (presumably) Mk 3 or 4 weapon for BARs.
 

Deleted member 1487

(Sorry guys, now is probably the time for me to mention that I've started quietly assuming it's best to go with the Owen in .30 carbine/whatever instead of just going with the OP scenario of issuing M1s. A lot of weight, yes, necessitating the ammo bearers equipped with No 5 & 6 rifle.)
Why not a belt fed .30 Carbine like the Soviet LAD? Simple blowback in a heavier weapon so the felt recoil was limited and it was highly accurate and effective out to 400m due to the barrel length:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAD_machine_gun
 
From LINK
The Sniper
The sniper was introduced into the War establishment of the infantry battalion in 1943. Originally there were two per rifle company but from November 1944 the battalion snipers were concentrated at Battalion Headquarters. This was probably as a result of the experience in Normandy. Snipers were not only skilled marksmen but were also trained in intelligence gathering.
sniper serjeant
corporal sniper
2 X lance corporal sniper
4 X sniper.

...

Snipers used two types of rifle in 21 Army Group. The most accurate was the older Rifle No1 MkIII SMLE. However in the interests of standardisation most rifles were the sniper version of the Rifle No4 (T). The rifle was fitted with a No32 MkI telescopic sight. Sniper rifles were carefully selected and provided with a breech cover and a felt valise to protect it from the elements and accidental damage. A special sling was also fitted to the rifle to enable it to be braced for aiming and firing.

Snipers used the standard ammunition pouches containing the following
50 X .303” SAA rounds of ammunition selected by the sniper.
5 X tracer bullets
5 X armour piercing bullets
2 X No36 grenades

Other equipment included
A pair of No2 MkII binoculars in a carrying case
A compass with carrying case
A watch
A camouflage net
The sniper could also have a camouflaged Denison smock as worn by paratroops
.

It would totally make sense for the snipers to retain a No4T given their role
 
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