British Army adopts M1 Carbine as primary rifle for Normandy

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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Let me explain why that is wrong.


That's not explaining anything, that's a video showing the rifle being 'field stripped'.

You claimed the Marines were taking parts of the rifle apart that they weren't supposed to take apart. The number of parts inside the rifle has absolutely nothing to do with that - if you're not trained to take something apart and you do then it's your own fault.

There are some parts that look easy to lose, but then that's why if you're stripping it down you'd do it carefully and preferably not in the dark. Certainly the parts are no smaller than some of the bolt parts in the L85 (and probably bits of any other assault rifle). That's why if you need to battle clean the rifle with a chance of ending up in a contact while you're doing it you just pull out the gas parts (it can still be fired as a bolt action if you're desperately need to fire it with the gas parts out), give them a clean and give the barrel a pull through. Once you're somewhere safer you can do the little fiddly bits like taking the bolt apart.

How far were the Marines trained to strip the rifles? Was that enough to keep the rifle working in battle conditions? If it was and the Marines were stripping it further then they were going against their training and that's their own fault. If it's not it's the fault of either the person who wrote the training or the person giving it.
 
And there was a lot of Foreign designed weapons in British Service and they have been quite happy in the years since to use weapon designs NIH

BREN - Czech
Lewis Gun - USA
BESA 7.92 Mauser MMG and 15mm HMG - Czech
Lee Enfield Rifles used a design made by a American - so a 'Mid Atlantic' Design (perfected at Enfield)

Later post war we see

L1A1 (Imperial FN FAL) - Belgian
L7 GPMG - Belgian
Browning Hi Power - Belgium (bit of a theme)
FN Minimi - ummm still Belgium
L85A1 and A2 - based (initially quite poorly) on the AR18 and later Stoner 63 design - USA
L129A1 Marksman rifle - USA
Carl Gustav 84mm MAW - Sweden

You forgot that Canada was knocking out Browning Hi-Powers in massive numbers in WW2, a lot of which wound up in Commonwealth use. WW2 Brownings were still in use in the RN into the 1980's.
 
That's not explaining anything, that's a video showing the rifle being 'field stripped'.

You claimed the Marines were taking parts of the rifle apart that they weren't supposed to take apart. The number of parts inside the rifle has absolutely nothing to do with that - if you're not trained to take something apart and you do then it's your own fault.

There are some parts that look easy to lose, but then that's why if you're stripping it down you'd do it carefully and preferably not in the dark. Certainly the parts are no smaller than some of the bolt parts in the L85 (and probably bits of any other assault rifle). That's why if you need to battle clean the rifle with a chance of ending up in a contact while you're doing it you just pull out the gas parts (it can still be fired as a bolt action if you're desperately need to fire it with the gas parts out), give them a clean and give the barrel a pull through. Once you're somewhere safer you can do the little fiddly bits like taking the bolt apart.

How far were the Marines trained to strip the rifles? Was that enough to keep the rifle working in battle conditions? If it was and the Marines were stripping it further then they were going against their training and that's their own fault. If it's not it's the fault of either the person who wrote the training or the person giving it.

The Johnsons were actually made under a contract for the Dutch in the East Indies. The lot got left at the docks after the Japanese invasion, where they were found by "enterprising" US Marines, so not only never really adopted but likely there was never a Field Manual written for it, in English at least... I doubt there were many Dutch speakers in the Marines.
 

Deleted member 1487

The 106th Division reported 6697 POW, 417 KIA, 1278 WIA, and 53 DOW in WW II; two of the division's three regiments (422nd and 423rd) were destroyed on the Schnee Eifel in December, but the division headquarters, division troops, engineers, artillery, and the third regiment (424th) are withdrew; the division, with the separate 3rd and 159th infantry regiments attached, remained assigned to the V Corps in February and 15th Army from March, entering Germany in April, 1945. Simultaneously, the 422nd and 423rd were rebuilt in France and returned to the US with the 106th Division after VE Day. So, not exactly "destroyed"...

Data is all from Stanton.
I said effectively destroyed. Elements of it continued to exist, but they had to be reinforced by other formation to be able function.
 
That's not explaining anything, that's a video showing the rifle being 'field stripped'.

You claimed the Marines were taking parts of the rifle apart that they weren't supposed to take apart. The number of parts inside the rifle has absolutely nothing to do with that - if you're not trained to take something apart and you do then it's your own fault.

There are some parts that look easy to lose, but then that's why if you're stripping it down you'd do it carefully and preferably not in the dark. Certainly the parts are no smaller than some of the bolt parts in the L85 (and probably bits of any other assault rifle). That's why if you need to battle clean the rifle with a chance of ending up in a contact while you're doing it you just pull out the gas parts (it can still be fired as a bolt action if you're desperately need to fire it with the gas parts out), give them a clean and give the barrel a pull through. Once you're somewhere safer you can do the little fiddly bits like taking the bolt apart.

How far were the Marines trained to strip the rifles? Was that enough to keep the rifle working in battle conditions? If it was and the Marines were stripping it further then they were going against their training and that's their own fault. If it's not it's the fault of either the person who wrote the training or the person giving it.

Look, if you read what I wrote, then you will see where you and I fundamentally disagree. Consider that every weapon malfunctions. If you have to disassembly your weapon in the dark. The extractor fell off when you pulled the bolt out of the Johnson rifle and machine gun. This is a design "kill me" I specifically cite, because the damned thing, the extractor finger, was about the size and shape of a small nail file. You were not supposed to pull the bolt module, but to clear a jam, you sometimes had to take the weapon down that far. Now explain to me, what happens when the Japanese are infiltrating and you are in the middle of trying to find that bit of metal? You die.

BTW, the marines in the field were trained to clear their weapons in case of a misfeed. Johnsons included, so they HAD to know how to field strip. That includes the "touch" method, so they could do it at night.
 

Dave Shoup

Banned
I said effectively destroyed. Elements of it continued to exist, but they had to be reinforced by other formation to be able function.

Divisions and brigades are formations; regiments (in the US WW II sense, of three line battalions beneath a regimental headquarters) and battalions are units.

The 106th was the formation; the 422nd, 423rd, 424th, and the 3rd and 159th infantry regiments, were units.

The 106th, even with only the 424th under command, remained "functional" in the sense it was assigned a sector and held it after the Eifel; attaching the 3rd and 159th simply allowed that sector to be expanded. The division invaded Germany in April, after all, so it was quite functional. Between November, 1944, and March, 1945, it was assigned to the VIII Corps (29 Nov. to 20 Dec.; the Eifel battle ended 19 Dec.); XVIII Corps (20 Dec. to 6 February, 1945); and the V Corps (6 Feb. to 10 March), at which point it was assigned to 15th Army. The 3rd and 159th were attached on 16 March, and remained with the division until VE Day.

Operationally, after the Eifel, the 106th division, including the 424th, divisional artillery, engineers, etc, held St. Vith (with the attached 112th Infantry/28th Division) until 23 December, at which point it was attached to the 7th Armored and engaged in combat and defensive missions in Manhay, Wanne (with the 517th PIR attached), Ennal, Stavelot, and Meyerode-St. Vith through to January, when it was reattached to the 7th Armored and then the 99th Division in February, fighting around Hunningen and Olds, at which point the 106th was assigned to 15th Army, with the 3rd and 159th regiments attached, and remained on the west side of the Rhine, covering the western flank of the Ruhr operations, through March, invading Germany east of the Rhine in April, 1945.

The 106th Division is credited with the Rhineland, Ardennes-Alsace, and Central Europe campaigns. When the war ended, it was in Bad Ems, Germany.The three regiments, separately, are also credited with Northern France.

The above is from Stanton.
 
Let me throw this gasoline on the fire.


This is not me scorching Churchill. This is Nigel Hamilton who puts the boot in. He puts it in hard.
 
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