British Army adopts M1 Carbine as primary rifle for Normandy

  • Thread starter Deleted member 1487
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7.62x25mm at 300 is pretty optimistic, 400 you're just about doing trajectory calculations on par with the old volley fire tactic that was designed to refight blackpowder-era line engagements with modern smokeless ammo.
The M1928 Tommy Gun had a ladder sight out to 600 yards
That's like a 100' drop
 
and here is the rear sight. All the way to 800 metres
k.jpeg

All in standard 9x19mm with a bipod to boot.
 
Those are both interesting, but as "home" units, approaching an irregular status. The Chinese Nationalists used the Hanyang 88 as a standard issue individual weapon in WW II.

Anything come to mind predating those?

Soviet's using Berdan's?

There were small numbers pulled out to use during the "Oh shit we have no rifles" days.

Otherwise the Greeks and the Gras would be the oldest I can think of.

As for the topic at hand, ignoring the logistics issues (which already is a big ask, but not impossible as some think) I think trying to do this really would be strangled by cost issue. The British simply can't afford them, and before you say they would be given under lend-lease, I have to ask, why would Britain accept them?

The other lend-lease equipment they took to fit shortfalls in what was available (Shermans, supplies etc) within British industrial ability, but the M1 Carbine doesn't do that, so all it would do is place another, unnecessary, weight on the back of the camel that was going to be British post-war finances. I mean it would serve the US great if it happened (faster decline of the British Empire being one of those oh so happy side-effects of Lend-Lease) but not the British.
 
and here is the rear sight. All the way to 800 metres
View attachment 491555
All in standard 9x19mm with a bipod to boot.


My go to 'what the British should have made' SMG for WW2 is this gun in 9x25 Mauser or the Russian 7.62x25 Takorev to make it a true 200m 'Machine Carbine'

The British already had a good relationship with the Czechoslovakian armaments industry particularly Zbrojovka Brno who makes the SMG with which they developed the .303 version of the ZB26 LMG, the ZB33 better known as the Bren gun during the 30s

There is a simplified version of the gun the ZK 383 P (Police version) that lacks the bipod and removable barrel

This and the original Italian MAB 38 along with the Finnish Suomi 31 are probably the best 3 SMGs of the early war period and of the 3 the ZK383 P is the best all round choice IMHO
 
Those are both interesting, but as "home" units, approaching an irregular status. The Chinese Nationalists used the Hanyang 88 as a standard issue individual weapon in WW II.

Anything come to mind predating those?
do pistols count?
the swiss maintained their Schmidt M1882 revolvers until 1949,
the french had a number of MAS 1873 revolvers in reserve until the occupation
the italians were producing the Bodeo Model 1889 until 1931, and used them in the war
the brits had the webley mk VI, that entered production in 1915, but the action traces back to the mk I of 1887
the german M1879 Reichsrevolver may have seen service in ww2, but i can't confirm it
 

Deleted member 1487

This and the original Italian MAB 38 along with the Finnish Suomi 31 are probably the best 3 SMGs of the early war period and of the 3 the ZK383 P is the best all round choice IMHO
The Danuvia 39M, SIG MKMS, and MP34 would like a word.
 
The Danuvia 39M, SIG MKMS, and MP34 would like a word.

Heavy, expensive and couldn't decide if it wanted to be a carbine or an SMG.

Swiss, thus irrelevant to any discussion of WW2. Also produced in tiny numbers relatively speaking.

Actually pretty decent.

Also because I'm not just trying to pick a fight with you.

The Suomi was a fantastic smg, just not a particularly good one as you need an SMG to be able to be made in large numbers, quickly. The Suomi was not.

MAB 38 managed to be the one Italian WW2 design that actually worked, so kudos there.

The ZK383, much like the MP34, was simply pretty damned good.
 
Heavy, expensive and couldn't decide if it wanted to be a carbine or an SMG.

Swiss, thus irrelevant to any discussion of WW2. Also produced in tiny numbers relatively speaking.

Actually pretty decent.

Also because I'm not just trying to pick a fight with you.

The Suomi was a fantastic smg, just not a particularly good one as you need an SMG to be able to be made in large numbers, quickly. The Suomi was not.

MAB 38 managed to be the one Italian WW2 design that actually worked, so kudos there.

The ZK383, much like the MP34, was simply pretty damned good.

There was nothing wrong with the Italian service rifles, they worked and had no significant problems. Where the Italians were really dismal were their LMG's which can best be described as sub-standard.
 
There was nothing wrong with the Italian service rifles, they worked and had no significant problems. Where the Italians were really dismal were their LMG's which can best be described as sub-standard.

They weren't WW2 designs though. I'm not a member of the Carcano hate train, they honestly were spectacularly good at doing the job they needed to do, but they were long an element before the war started.
 

Deleted member 1487

Heavy, expensive and couldn't decide if it wanted to be a carbine or an SMG.

Swiss, thus irrelevant to any discussion of WW2. Also produced in tiny numbers relatively speaking.

Actually pretty decent.

Also because I'm not just trying to pick a fight with you.

The Suomi was a fantastic smg, just not a particularly good one as you need an SMG to be able to be made in large numbers, quickly. The Suomi was not.

MAB 38 managed to be the one Italian WW2 design that actually worked, so kudos there.

The ZK383, much like the MP34, was simply pretty damned good.
I hate to break it to you, but all the criticisms you leveled at the SMGs I mentioned apply to the ZK383, as they were expensive and only produced in tiny numbers and only saw combat service in German hands. In that way the MP34 and ZK383 were very similar, same with the Suomi. It is just infamous due to the Winter War and the Soviet knockoffs.

Of the bunch the Danuvia was lighter than any of the above, just longer. It also have a lot more versatility due to the muzzle velocity and resulting range/trajectory. 10,000 were produced and they were well liked by the users. The Brits even had the chance to adopt it pre-war, but declined due to it being a 'gangster's weapon' only to then put in production the Sten once they encountered SMGs in battle.

Honestly Britain could have been ahead of the game if they adopted the Danuvia in 1938...
 

Deleted member 1487

There was nothing wrong with the Italian service rifles, they worked and had no significant problems. Where the Italians were really dismal were their LMG's which can best be described as sub-standard.
I'm pretty sure Ian over at Forgotten Weapons called their Breda LMG the worst MG of WW2.
The Carcanos were generally alright, though the action was pretty sticky, they just needed a better bullet on their cartridge to make it more lethal.
 
Honestly Britain could have been ahead of the game if they adopted the Danuvia in 1938...

Listen, the amount of times Britain could have been ahead of the game is boggling. But all those come with the benefit of hindsight. I do agree that adopting the not-quite a Carbine Danuvia would be neat, but it is always going to suffer from a case of "Not Designed Here".
 

Deleted member 1487

Listen, the amount of times Britain could have been ahead of the game is boggling. But all those come with the benefit of hindsight. I do agree that adopting the not-quite a Carbine Danuvia would be neat, but it is always going to suffer from a case of "Not Designed Here".
Not really the issue, there was a thesis on the equipping of the British Home Guard where it it was shown to have been seriously evaluated with BSA produced a small batch of them in May 1939, but with the war on the doorstep and the army not requesting a weapon like that until December 1939 it was basically ignored. Thereafter, that is when the request for an SMG ASAP came, they were in full wartime panic mode and went for the cheapest option available. NMH was not a factor, as BSA redesigned parts of it and ultimately the Sten was based on a simplification of a German design.
 
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My go to 'what the British should have made' SMG for WW2 is this gun in 9x25 Mauser or the Russian 7.62x25 Takorev to make it a true 200m 'Machine Carbine'

The British already had a good relationship with the Czechoslovakian armaments industry particularly Zbrojovka Brno who makes the SMG with which they developed the .303 version of the ZB26 LMG, the ZB33 better known as the Bren gun during the 30s

There is a simplified version of the gun the ZK 383 P (Police version) that lacks the bipod and removable barrel

This and the original Italian MAB 38 along with the Finnish Suomi 31 are probably the best 3 SMGs of the early war period and of the 3 the ZK383 P is the best all round choice IMHO

This is the gun I'm using in an AH I'm writing. Using the very hot Czech 7.62 mm round you'd probably get 1800-1900 FPS which should be good for at least 300-350 yards.
 

Deleted member 1487

Oh I am sure they would - but for a very late 30s rearmament POD they are my 3 go to guns.
Well, BSA built several Kiraly SMGs and got the price down to 5£ in May 1939 before disinterest effectively killed the project. Then after the war started and the army realized their mistake they just bought 50£ Thompson SMGs, using cash, from the US using a non-standard caliber sourced from the US. So very late 1930s rearmament gun was the BSA-Kiraly 39M, but it was ignored and cost the British very dearly to buy US guns instead at a very high markup.
 
Not really the issue, there was a thesis on the equipping of the British Home Guard where it it was shown to have been seriously evaluated with BSA produced a small batch of them in May 1939, but with the war on the doorstep and the army not requesting a weapon like that until December 1939 it was basically ignored. Thereafter, that is when the request for an SMG ASAP came, they were in full wartime panic mode and went for the cheapest option available. NMH was not a factor, as BSA redesigned parts of it and ultimately the Sten was based on a simplification of a German design.

And there was a lot of Foreign designed weapons in British Service and they have been quite happy in the years since to use weapon designs NIH

BREN - Czech
Lewis Gun - USA
BESA 7.92 Mauser MMG and 15mm HMG - Czech
Lee Enfield Rifles used a design made by a American - so a 'Mid Atlantic' Design (perfected at Enfield)

Later post war we see

L1A1 (Imperial FN FAL) - Belgian
L7 GPMG - Belgian
Browning Hi Power - Belgium (bit of a theme)
FN Minimi - ummm still Belgium
L85A1 and A2 - based (initially quite poorly) on the AR18 and later Stoner 63 design - USA
L129A1 Marksman rifle - USA
Carl Gustav 84mm MAW - Sweden
 
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