Britannia's Fist: From Civil War to World War

A problem shared by most of the US monitors in regards to their turrets were the way the plates were bolted on. Hits frequently caused bolt heads to shear off and they became dangerous projectiles in the close confines of the turret.

You should not exclude the Passaic class, but truthfully both classes had serious drawbacks. The general question would be where exactly do you believe both the British and American ironclads will meet.

The floating batteries may hardly be seaworthy, but it isn't hard to modify a warship to be able to at least make the transit from port to theater. Any low freeboard British monitors constructed would be temporarily given high bulwarks for being towed overseas.

True, though the problem is more severe with the US/CS style of heavy low velocity shot than the British one of light high velocity. And while the armament of the Monitors are a deadend for development, they are still effective in this particular timespan.

Presumably the Union navy wouldn't be stupid enough to contest the high seas with the Royal Navy, so any engagement would be between the British trying to enforce a blockade and protecting troop shipments to Canada vs. the U.S. breaking that blockade and attempting to intercept the troop convoys, all in coastal waters. For the blockade, there would also be the advantage of close bases and coastal fortresses for defeated squadrons to hide behind and rebuild. (and of course, commerce raiders. I think by this point the U.S. merchant marine is gone, so it would be just American sloops attacking British shipping.)

Do the British have any bases in the Americas capable of repairing a huge iron hulled warship like the Warrior?

Given how unseaworty the US monitors were, was ramming a suitable tactic for a bigger ship? After all, it doesnt matter if it cant penetrate the turret armour if its just run right over you....

Didn't work when the U.S. tried it. Also has the problem of big ships like the Warrior being much less manuverable than the monitors.
 
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67th Tigers

Banned
As I already said, Monitor was a rather low quality prototype built in extraordinary haste which had already sunk by the time the POD comes, and the proper comparison is with the Canonicus class which the Royal Navy would be facing.

Canonicus? She mid-late 1864 then? In 1863 the ironclad fleet was almost entirely Passiacs. These used the same armour material and processing as Monitor (i.e. high silica 1" thickness plates), Canonicus has 2" plates.

Passiac had 11 layers of plates on her turret (as did Monitor when uparmoured following the absolute battering she received at Hampton Roads), Canonicus had 5 plates.

I don't know about the quality of the armor on the Canonicus, but it was certainly thicker than the Monitor and you already admitted Warrior can't penetrate Monitor's turret armor.

Actually slightly thiner, but giving roughly the same protection for about a 10% decrease in weight. Against being battered by 68 pdr shot, the Canonicus should hold up better. A hit against Monitor/ Passiac should smash 2-3 plates and induce spalling (which the 8" wooden backing absorbed, ISTR some later Monitors lacked wood backing for their armour and would have been deathtraps against high velocity roundshot), Canonicus would probably only lose 1 plate at a time.

Sure, you can penetrate the side or deck armor, but they provide almost no target.

It's bigger than you'd think, several feet of freeboard. At typical fighting range of the time (less than 200 yds) the elevation of the Warriors guns is such that the Monitor/ etc.s deck armour will take hits. Even Monitor took two hits to the deck and Hampton Roads (and several to the sides), but was saved by the rounds being shell, not HV shot. Had Virginia had enough roundshot, or, God forbid, chilled iron ammunition, then Monitor would have been opened to the sea and due to having essentially no reserve boyancy would have sunk.

And the 15 inchers can penetrate the Warrior's side armor and that of all British ironclads until the Minotaur class (and that too at point blank) while none of the British can penetrate the Canonicus's turret armor at any range. Plus, until the Minotaur, much of the hulls of the British ironclads were unarmored and thus completely vulnerable. Indeed, the primary flaw in the Warrior is that her steering is completely unprotected. If that gets taken out, then she becomes nothing more than a target and even a crappy river monitor would be able to smash her, taking advantage of her unarmored stern.

Yes, you can poke a hole in the side, if you're lucky. Then what? The rounds have no explosive burster, and the Warrior target doesn't really spall that much. You might knock a gun out, if you're lucky. You can aim for the less armoured ends, but there's nothing of fighting value there (well, after 1864, before there are a couple of guns which were often left unmanned). All the machinery is below the waterline, the battery is enclosed in a box.

To sink her, you need to flood her, and she's well compartmentalised.

Your numbers are also kind of questionable. According to Wiki (unreliable I know) the British only had 10 seagoing ironclads in 1864. Minotaur for example wasn't commissioned until 1868, and Caledonia not until 1865. And the floating batteries are hardly seagoing. I'm not sure they can make it across the Atlantic, certainly not under their own power, so I don't think Terror is going to be facing the U.S. Navy.

This is a very common misconception.

"Commissioned" in the RN literally meant assigned to an active squadron. Most armoured ships were in 1st class Reserve (fully equipped, stored and ready for sea with a skeleton crew). Indeed, most ironclads went straight into Reserve, and were only "Commissioned" years after. In fact the RN had a large reserve of ironclads ready to activate, but due to the treasury only activated them in response to further increases in strength abroad.

Minotaur was launched in December 1863 and entered Reserve shortly thereafter. She remained in Reserve until 1865 and was then used to test new weapons etc., before being Commissioned flagship Channel in April 1867, and finally "Completing" the year after (when final modifications were made). She was a viable fighting ship ready for general service at 4 or less weeks notice from late 1863.
 
Canonicus? She mid-late 1864 then? In 1863 the ironclad fleet was almost entirely Passiacs. These used the same armour material and processing as Monitor (i.e. high silica 1" thickness plates), Canonicus has 2" plates.

You're right, though as you noted, the Passiacs were almost as well protected as the Canonicuses.

Actually slightly thiner, but giving roughly the same protection for about a 10% decrease in weight. Against being battered by 68 pdr shot, the Canonicus should hold up better. A hit against Monitor/ Passiac should smash 2-3 plates and induce spalling (which the 8" wooden backing absorbed, ISTR some later Monitors lacked wood backing for their armour and would have been deathtraps against high velocity roundshot), Canonicus would probably only lose 1 plate at a time.

Can you give some backing for this? The 15 in Dahlgrens hit with roughly twice the force of the 68 pounder. Matching what you say about the 15 inchers' effects on Warrior's armor with what you say about the 68's effects on the heavier armor of the Canonicus seems difficult.

It's bigger than you'd think, several feet of freeboard. At typical fighting range of the time (less than 200 yds) the elevation of the Warriors guns is such that the Monitor/ etc.s deck armour will take hits.

Certainly the monitors' deck and side armor pose less of a target (and are better protected) than the Warrior's exposed bow and stern. And any hits on the deck will be at quite an angle.

Yes, you can poke a hole in the side, if you're lucky. Then what? The rounds have no explosive burster, and the Warrior target doesn't really spall that much. You might knock a gun out, if you're lucky. You can aim for the less armoured ends, but there's nothing of fighting value there (well, after 1864, before there are a couple of guns which were often left unmanned). All the machinery is below the waterline, the battery is enclosed in a box.

Are you saying that the steering is not of fighting value? The Achilles was specifically designed it's steering isn't completely unprotected like the Warrior, and when that proved unsatisfactory, the British moved to the Minotaur class. In any case, battles between Ironclads of this time period will be certainly be time consuming slugging matches.

This is a very common misconception.

"Commissioned" in the RN literally meant assigned to an active squadron. Most armoured ships were in 1st class Reserve (fully equipped, stored and ready for sea with a skeleton crew). Indeed, most ironclads went straight into Reserve, and were only "Commissioned" years after. In fact the RN had a large reserve of ironclads ready to activate, but due to the treasury only activated them in response to further increases in strength abroad.

Minotaur was launched in December 1863 and entered Reserve shortly thereafter. She remained in Reserve until 1865 and was then used to test new weapons etc., before being Commissioned flagship Channel in April 1867, and finally "Completing" the year after (when final modifications were made). She was a viable fighting ship ready for general service at 4 or less weeks notice from late 1863.

Really? That's nice to know. I actually got the completed 1868 thing from the U.S. Department of the Navy and you would think they would have mentioned if completing in that context means something completely different from U.S. usage. And 4 weeks to fit masts, rigging, weapons seems incredibly fast. Canonicus took 8 months from launching to be ready for service and this was in the middle of a war with armored warships in critically short supply. Unless the British also use launch in a completely different way from the U.S.
 
Then presumably the RN would destroy the american fleet and successfully blockade the Union Ports. With total control of the seas, I guess that Tsouras must have another great power intervene to distract Great Britain from crushing the US, my favourite for this would be France.

Another question I have, is would the US be internally self sufficient and able to continue prosecuting the war, or are they reliant on imports to fuel their 'war effort'?
Russia would be more likely.

Earlier yes, by 1863, there would still be problems but the war could be carried on.
 
67th Tigers, I'd be incredibly interested if you'd be willing to drop your information in a e-mail to Mr. Tsouras and let us know what his reply his. You've laid out an interesting case, and I'm really unsure what the "correct" determination would be. Tsouras does mention the British Virginia-style ironclads, but we don't see those in the first book, at least.

And in regards to the Copperhead and French actions, we don't really see much of them at all -- the book's simply too short for that. It's really too short to develop much more than the basic beginnings of each of the plot threads, which is really its greatest drawback. It's probably the best "European entry into the Civil War" story out there, but there's points to quibble with. How much of that is just the standard disagreement over what was "likely" is another matter, of course.
 

67th Tigers

Banned
You're right, though as you noted, the Passiacs were almost as well protected as the Canonicuses.

It was pretty rapidly established what level of protection was required against the guns in use in theatre (7" rifles etc.), and most Monitors had roughly 10" of armour (the extra 5" on Dictator was structural cast iron, and offered no real extra resistance to shot, and indeed would have generated massive spalling).

Can you give some backing for this? The 15 in Dahlgrens hit with roughly twice the force of the 68 pounder. Matching what you say about the 15 inchers' effects on Warrior's armor with what you say about the 68's effects on the heavier armor of the Canonicus seems difficult.

There were a lot of tests conducted in the 1860's. I first became aware of them from Parke's British Battleships, but have since read the various reports of the Committee of Ordnance and Armour in the PRO.

One of the problems of the large 15" is it's size, it it simply too large, and has too large a surface area to successfully penetrate much (indeed, in combat it never fully penetrated more than 4" (2x2" layers) of very low quality iron, made a partial penetration once against 5" of similar, but was defeated by 6"). However, there is a lot of kinetic energy in the round, and it really could batter the insides without penetration.

The 68 OTOH has twice the KE/ presented surface area of a double charged 15" (but considerably less raw KE at shot range). In tests it would reliably penetrate 3" of single thickness high quality wrought iron. The 4" of armour was selected for the 1855 ironclads as this was proof against any Russian coastal battery.

Certainly the monitors' deck and side armor pose less of a target (and are better protected) than the Warrior's exposed bow and stern. And any hits on the deck will be at quite an angle.

True, but the deck is extremely weak, and any penetrations are very delitirious. Warrior's ends OTOH are mainly her accommodations etc., and have little impact on fighting value.

Are you saying that the steering is not of fighting value? The Achilles was specifically designed it's steering isn't completely unprotected like the Warrior, and when that proved unsatisfactory, the British moved to the Minotaur class. In any case, battles between Ironclads of this time period will be certainly be time consuming slugging matches.

Allow me to quote Brown's Warrior to Dreadnought (pg 14):

"The lack of armour on the ends was less serious than many contemporaries believed, since the ends were well subdivided, and even if both ends flooded draught would only increase by 26in. The lack of protection to the steering gear was more serious, although it was a small target and not likely to be hit. However the unprotected broadside guns outside the armoured battery were a bad feature."

Brown has actually produced a very good book and looks and rarely considered features such as contemporary theories of wave stress etc. to explain some design features.

The move towards thicker armour over smaller areas was triggered not by US guns (the British experimental 13" Horsfall Gun of 1855 was a far more dangerous piece of ordnance than a Rodman, even a 20" Rodman), but by Armstrong and Whitworth (and the older Horsfall) demonstrating consistant penetration of some very heavy armour plates as early as 1861-2. The guns which emerged as the RN service pieces (fielded from 1864) were based on the Armstrong Shunt Gun with Whitworth rifling. The progress is amazing, in 1864 the fleet starts to rearm with a steel rifled gun capable of piercing thick armour at long ranges, and firing palliser shell (i.e. an armour piercing round with a bursting charge fuse to detonate after penetration). The idea of a "shotproof ship" is dead, it is accepted that guns with trump armour, all other things being equal.

Really? That's nice to know. I actually got the completed 1868 thing from the U.S. Department of the Navy and you would think they would have mentioned if completing in that context means something completely different from U.S. usage. And 4 weeks to fit masts, rigging, weapons seems incredibly fast. Canonicus took 8 months from launching to be ready for service and this was in the middle of a war with armored warships in critically short supply. Unless the British also use launch in a completely different way from the U.S.

Canonicus took so long because the US was critically short of materials, especially armour plate. A look at the ironclad programme shows the US could build hulls quicker than it would fit them out. Some languished for years.

Launching does mean something slightly different. For the British, the launched ships were fully cased, engined etc., with the major jobs being masting, arming and provisioning (mostly arming). For US Monitors, launched ships didn't actually have turrets ISTR.

Defence launched on 31 Dec 61, at the height of the Trent Crisis, she was scheduled to steam for the Lisbon* on 31 Jan 62, with the crew transferred directly from another vessel (Ariadne? I can't remember which offhand). Royal Oak was scheduled to steam for the Lisbon before the start of April (she was not cased when the crisis hit, and the dockyard moved to 24 hour working to finish her rapidly, as indeed happened generally).


* During the Trent Crisis the RN decided to concentrate their main battle force for America at Lisbon, including all available armoured frigates. In the event of war, this force would steam immediately for America, and would strike the USN at Hampton Roads.
 
Another question I have, is would the US be internally self sufficient and able to continue prosecuting the war, or are they reliant on imports to fuel their 'war effort'?

the Union probably could have become self sufficient... in OTL, they just didn't bother because they didn't go to war with Britain, and didn't need to do so. In this scenario, the Union would have to ramp up internal production of black powder (IIRC, guns and cannons were being made in sufficient number). But the big problem is finance... the Union government was about totally dependent on customs fees for it's financing, and the RN blockade would drive them into bankruptcy...
 
the Union probably could have become self sufficient... in OTL, they just didn't bother because they didn't go to war with Britain, and didn't need to do so. In this scenario, the Union would have to ramp up internal production of black powder (IIRC, guns and cannons were being made in sufficient number). But the big problem is finance... the Union government was about totally dependent on customs fees for it's financing, and the RN blockade would drive them into bankruptcy...

Wasn't an income tax passed during the war?
 
America wins?
Damn, I was interested for a while there. Its sounding potentially silly though.

the Union probably could have become self sufficient... in OTL, they just didn't bother because they didn't go to war with Britain, and didn't need to do so. In this scenario, the Union would have to ramp up internal production of black powder (IIRC, guns and cannons were being made in sufficient number). But the big problem is finance... the Union government was about totally dependent on customs fees for it's financing, and the RN blockade would drive them into bankruptcy...
Perhaps the blockade wouldn't even be needed. The Trent affair IOTL caused major economic upheavel in the American economy and that was just a war scare, it hadn't actually come down to it.
 
Actually monitors could cross the Atlantic and did so several times. But, it was a very unpleasant trip and they were probably luck not to encounter any storms.
we are all talking about 15 inch guns, if memory serves, some were armed with large Parrot guns. these were rifled and firing elongated shells and shot . anybody know how the penetration was on these?
 
Hmm, just went and checked the book out on Amazon, France is in with us Brits, the Copperheads rebel against Federal control and side with the Confederates. But stock phrases such as 'the young republic' 'old world empires', 'young republic fights for its life', suggest to me its another another USA takes on the world and tans their hides story. Think i'll save my money on this one:D

Same here.

If someone who has read the book can confirm that it isnt an incredibly one sided Brit slaughtering story i'll pick it up.
 
Same here.

If someone who has read the book can confirm that it isnt an incredibly one sided Brit slaughtering story i'll pick it up.

The way Amerigo described it didn't make it sound as a "one sided Brit slaughtering story". I'll be getting it in the mail this week, so I'll be sure to post a review.
 
Same here.

If someone who has read the book can confirm that it isnt an incredibly one sided Brit slaughtering story i'll pick it up.

I'm about 2/3rds of the way through. The POD doesn't even occur until about halfway through it, but it does suggest that the last two books might be "Brit-slaughterers."
 
Britannia's Fist

I recieved and read the Book last Thursday from the States. Alot of the book is the Build up of the war and centred around two main people, a Union General called George H Sharpe, and Lt Col Wolseley. There are two main battles in the Book, the Battle of Portland and the Naval Battle of Charleston, both with Orbats and maps for Wargamers. I enjoyed it, much better than Conway 1862 and Stars and Stripes by Harrison. But like most books in this theme, the Yanks realise the use of Repeaters and the Brits dont.
 
But like most books in this theme, the Yanks realise the use of Repeaters and the Brits dont.

that brings up a good point... what were the Brits using for repeating rifles at this time? Did they develop them specifically for the Army? In the US, oddly enough, firearms development was driven almost solely by the civilian gun market... the Spencer and Henry were both marketed to civilians before the US army. Thus, when the war broke out, the Union wasn't able to really ramp up production of the two anytime soon, and had to scramble just to find enough rifles of any kind, much less repeaters. From what little I've read, it seems to me that Britain did more direct military research; the firearms they developed for their troops were intended to be that way from scratch...
 
that brings up a good point... what were the Brits using for repeating rifles at this time? Did they develop them specifically for the Army? In the US, oddly enough, firearms development was driven almost solely by the civilian gun market... the Spencer and Henry were both marketed to civilians before the US army. Thus, when the war broke out, the Union wasn't able to really ramp up production of the two anytime soon, and had to scramble just to find enough rifles of any kind, much less repeaters. From what little I've read, it seems to me that Britain did more direct military research; the firearms they developed for their troops were intended to be that way from scratch...

107,372 Spencer rifles and carbines were purchased by the Federal Government during the war. I don't know how much and how fast production could have been expanded if the Government needed it.

I don't know anything about British repeating rifle development during this time. If there were just prototypes in existence I would imagine it would have taken a while to ramp up production.

EDIT: For what it's worth, according to wikipedia the next British rifle to be introduced was the Snider-Enfield, a breechloading one shot rifle introduced in 1866. It had a significantly faster rate of fire than the 1853 Enfield, but it can't be compared to a rifle with a 7 round magazine like the Spencer. In it's favor however, it seems that 1853 Enfiled's could be converted into the new model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider-Enfield
 
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67th Tigers

Banned
Why the interest in repeaters? It may be slightly counterintuitive, but until detachable box magazines are invented the repeater is not a better weapon than the breachloader. The rounds are still loaded individually, so the ROF of the two is about the same.

In fact the ACW repeater was a dead end in small arms design, they were unreliable, expensive and fired very underpowered rounds. They did have their uses (especially for mounted troops fighting on horseback), but were not a replacement for a full power rifle.

Your numbers for Spencers are way off the mark. This may be the number order, but only about a tenth were delivered before the wars end (and most of those in late 64 onwards), see: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?p=1409178&highlight=repeater#post1409178

The British were debating whether to replace the Enfield. The favoured replacement was the superlative Westley-Richards, which is a Chassepot quality weapon, but the cost (1 million pounds to convert the entire army) was deemed too much. In wartime though I've no doubt the W-R would be issued.

One Monitor crossed the Atlantic, once. It was sealed up and towed, and arrived in an unfightable condition.

There is no internal source of potassium nitrate capable of replacing British imports. The replacement DuPont eventually found was to import sodium nitrate from South America and convert it. This, of course, is problematic if the British are blockading the coast.
 
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