Britannia Aeterna!

It's too little, too late. If the British had been willing to seriously discuss autonomy and equal rights with their colonial subjects, there could have been an opportunity. But this idea was designed to salvage what power they could, not from a genuine position of strength.

Of course, even if it's a genuine policy it's still questionable it would work, but as per OTL it is doomed.
 
To little to late, the best the Empire could hope for by then was a EU style Commonwealth. But by that late point such a group might not amount to much as the White Dominions turn to America for trade & protection.

Britain might be "first among equals" for a while in such a group, but it would eventually be surpassed by India (if it joined) or Britain would be continually vetoed when it tried to do something that wasn't in the other members interests.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
To little to late, the best the Empire could hope for by then was a EU style Commonwealth. But by that late point such a group might not amount to much as the White Dominions turn to America for trade & protection.

It wasn't too late until WWI. Up until 1918, the support for the British Empire among the Dominions was, if anything, stronger than in Britain itself. It was the trauma of the war that shook Dominion confidence in the British. Coming face-to-face with the incompetence of British generals who sent thousands of Australians, New Zealanders, and Canadians to horrible and useless deaths was a shock to the Dominions, as was the dismissive attitude of the British to the contributions of the Dominions.
 
It wasn't too late until WWI. Up until 1918, the support for the British Empire among the Dominions was, if anything, stronger than in Britain itself. It was the trauma of the war that shook Dominion confidence in the British. Coming face-to-face with the incompetence of British generals who sent thousands of Australians, New Zealanders, and Canadians to horrible and useless deaths was a shock to the Dominions, as was the dismissive attitude of the British to the contributions of the Dominions.

Dammit slaped down by the author of my favorite TL! Have to yield to the expert if he says it could have been done, but personel opinion is unless you get some major changes to OTL bordering ASB it can't happen.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Keep in mind that Britain didn't concede its legislative and diplomatic control over the Dominions until the Statute of Westminster in 1931. Even then, the Australians and New Zealanders weren't too happy about it (Australia didn't ratify the Statute until 1942, and New Zealand didn't until 1947). Even then, the British Parliament retained limited constitutional powers over Canada until 1982 and Australia and New Zealand until 1986. Hell, New Zealand didn't abolish judicial appeals to London until 2003!

The main point of the Rule Britannia TL is that, without the carnage of WWI, the British Empire stood a good chance of evolving into a genuine federation of some kind.
 
I don't think it would be too much of a problem for the white Dominions to fit into that mould, but the colonies - I can't see that without a major shift in policy on the ground.
 
The main point of the Rule Britannia TL is that, without the carnage of WWI, the British Empire stood a good chance of evolving into a genuine federation of some kind.

Agreed without WW1 or a shorter WW1 the odds of the Empire surviving in some form improve dramatically.

I don't think it would be too much of a problem for the white Dominions to fit into that mould, but the colonies - I can't see that without a major shift in policy on the ground.

Depends which colonies your talking about some of the more loyal "whiteish colonies" like Malta, Singapore, Hong Kong and Malaya might join such Imperial Federation. Heck Malaya even paid for a Royal Navy battleship before WW1.
 
Agreed without WW1 or a shorter WW1 the odds of the Empire surviving in some form improve dramatically.



Depends which colonies your talking about some of the more loyal "whiteish colonies" like Malta, Singapore, Hong Kong and Malaya might join such Imperial Federation. Heck Malaya even paid for a Royal Navy battleship before WW1.

There may well be a few more, though Malaya I can't quite see. But of course the *point* to the whole thing is India. Either you have it and an Empire, or it's out and you don't, really. Even if you can keep all of the African possessions (and I can't see any outside of South Africa and Rhodesia staying in)
 
My first time line i'm planning to do invloves this theme (although not ending in uber-britwank). Basically set around British involvement in the American civil war following the Trent Affair. Twenty years later another war erupts (similar to TL 191 but not quite the same). The resulting tensions make for some changes in Canadian - British relations such as no separate armed forces - Canadian regiments and ships are part of the British army and Royal Navy Respectivly. Also, in order to help industrialise the Canadian provinces, a system of imperial preference is established. This system eventually becomes the norm across the empire.

Any thoughts?
 
It wasn't too late until WWI. Up until 1918, the support for the British Empire among the Dominions was, if anything, stronger than in Britain itself. It was the trauma of the war that shook Dominion confidence in the British. Coming face-to-face with the incompetence of British generals who sent thousands of Australians, New Zealanders, and Canadians to horrible and useless deaths was a shock to the Dominions, as was the dismissive attitude of the British to the contributions of the Dominions.

Anaxagoras

I think part of the problem was that one reason the empire was so popular amongst the white dominions was because they got defence largely on the cheap. One of the aims of Imperial Federation plans was to try and share the burden a little more.

WWI did shock everybody a lot and caused a major losses of confidence about the empire in Britain as well as the dominions. Probably somewhat inaccurate talking about incompetence and useless deaths in that I don't think the British commanders were any worse than those of the other major nations. They could have done better in some things but with all the powers that was true. No one was expecting anything like the war that occurred and everybody was trying to adjust to new, unexpected circumstances made worse by the speed at which situations were changing. However the British/dominion world was probably more shocked than elsewhere due to the lack of any previous experience of large scale warfare and mass casualties.

Steve
 
There may well be a few more, though Malaya I can't quite see. But of course the *point* to the whole thing is India. Either you have it and an Empire, or it's out and you don't, really. Even if you can keep all of the African possessions (and I can't see any outside of South Africa and Rhodesia staying in)

carlton_bach

Would disagree here. India gave a lot of prestige and at times supplied a useful source of troops but was considerably less important than other parts of the empire in reality. [See the thread in ASB about what a merged UK Canada, Australia & New Zealand would be like as a world power today and that's without any feedback from closer interaction]. It could also be argued that it was more trouble than it was worth for Britain overall. Although Britain saw a number of people of Indian descent elected to Parliament in the 19thC I think the plan for Imperial Federation was centred around the white settlements with probably also a significant area in southern Africa expected to be predominantly white occupied.

At the time there was no real idea of racial equality anywhere in the world. If such a Federation had been established and provided viable you might well have seen at least some of the other colonies becoming members or at least being considered for it in time but whether the Federation would want to include India or India to be a member is doubtful.

Steve
 
My first time line i'm planning to do invloves this theme (although not ending in uber-britwank). Basically set around British involvement in the American civil war following the Trent Affair. Twenty years later another war erupts (similar to TL 191 but not quite the same). The resulting tensions make for some changes in Canadian - British relations such as no separate armed forces - Canadian regiments and ships are part of the British army and Royal Navy Respectivly. Also, in order to help industrialise the Canadian provinces, a system of imperial preference is established. This system eventually becomes the norm across the empire.

Any thoughts?

Russell

Could well be possible. A clear military threat would make Canada definitely be more interested in such a Federation. Similarly conflict with the US and resultant tension would make Canada itself stronger due to more population and investment even without any border changes in its favour or the continued splitting of the US by the presence of an independent south. There has been a lot of discussion in threads about an alternative Trent War and resultant effects - see 67th Tigers current Trent War thread although he admits he's being pretty generous to the US in events.

Some form of imperial preference was a common link amongst many of those supporting a federation. [Possibly in part because the dominions as they became independent were strongly protectionist so it was something to encourage them into such a relationship]. One idea I often like is if you can remove Gladstone's later ministries and have Chamberlain become a radical Liberal leader rather than moving to the Conservatives, which seems to have been largely because he left blocked by Gladstone. He was in favour of tariffs and imperial federation and also the social and educational reform that could have radically boosted Britain's economic performance in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Also if those were being brought in by a radical, reforming party rather than the Conservatives it might have been easier to get them accepted. [Probably another Liberal split as free trades move to the Tories but survivable and might butterfly the later rise of socialist parties as the main focus for the left].

There was a move at the start of the 20thC to try and form an imperial navy and the dominion navies at the time had very close links with the royal navy so could have occurred with a federation developing. Possibly the key factor would be a greater degree of threat to the dominions to prompt them to favour federation and its expenses. A more hostile US could do it for Canada and would also set a precedent. For Australia Japan is really took weak and distant early on but could work later.

Anyway, best of luck with it.

Steve
 
Cheers Steve. I'll bear a lot of that in mind. I've had a sort of idea in mind - I just need to figure out a way to make it intersting. Its a bit boring to start with. Doesn't really get going until the First World War Breaks out.
 
Cheers Steve. I'll bear a lot of that in mind. I've had a sort of idea in mind - I just need to figure out a way to make it intersting. Its a bit boring to start with. Doesn't really get going until the First World War Breaks out.

Russell

I would urge you not to have a WWI, at least not like the simplist one in TL 191 with everything as OTL expect a CSA on the allied side and a militarised US on the central powers side. There are so many butterflies that such a conflcit is highly unlikely. May get some big conflict especially if events in Germany go very close to OTL and continued hostility between the US and its neighbours. However a lot of other things will be different, including probably allies. If you are planning something more realistic and imaginative excellent but Turtledove's Great War series was so stale and unrealistic even when he produced it and has been copied since then so hope your not parallaling that closely.

Thanks

Steve
 
I'm not sure Imperial Federation would have ever really worked except in a very detached sense. One reason for saying this would be the reaction of NZ to the long ongoing discussion about Australian Federation in the late 19th century. If I recall correctly the idea was dismissed as a realistic option quite early on by the NZ political establishment. While Imperial Federation is different from Australasian Federation I suspect that if there was a concrete imperial federation as a nation state proposal a similar reaction would take place.


Although if you like to speculate about this I recommend you read the following link. It was written by one of NZ's earliest Prime Ministers, and is basically one of our first Science Fiction/Alternate History novels. It takes place in a 21st century Imperial Federation

LINK
 
Russell

I would urge you not to have a WWI, at least not like the simplist one in TL 191 with everything as OTL expect a CSA on the allied side and a militarised US on the central powers side. There are so many butterflies that such a conflcit is highly unlikely. May get some big conflict especially if events in Germany go very close to OTL and continued hostility between the US and its neighbours. However a lot of other things will be different, including probably allies. If you are planning something more realistic and imaginative excellent but Turtledove's Great War series was so stale and unrealistic even when he produced it and has been copied since then so hope your not parallaling that closely.

Thanks

Steve

Sorry, I should probably have clarified a little more. Britain, due to fear of fighting a war on two huge fronts stays neutral (amongst a firestorm of debate) in WW1. The first world war then becomes more of a "European War" in which the CP win.

I'm not a fan of the TL 191 series. I think turtledove had a great oppertunity to make a fantastic, almost definitive alternate history saga but blue it by making AH lite and basing so many events and people directly on others who existed in out TL. Shame really.
 
Sorry, I should probably have clarified a little more. Britain, due to fear of fighting a war on two huge fronts stays neutral (amongst a firestorm of debate) in WW1. The first world war then becomes more of a "European War" in which the CP win.

I'm not a fan of the TL 191 series. I think turtledove had a great oppertunity to make a fantastic, almost definitive alternate history saga but blue it by making AH lite and basing so many events and people directly on others who existed in out TL. Shame really.

Russell

Thanks. that's sounds a lot more interesting. [Although in the long run allowing someone to win big on the continent would be very dangerous to Britain]. Looking forward to finding out more.

Steve
 
Cool then. I'll hopefully have it up in around two weeks after my uni exams are over and my last training weekend with the Army is complete. Its going to consist of a introduction covering 1861-1864 and then hopefully a year by year account upto 1912. Gonna be difficult tho. I don't see any truely extraordinary ramifications for the world outside of N. America until the European war. But we'll see how it goes.
 
Neil Shutes "In the Wet" Has a Uber British Commonwealth grow out of fighting a War with Russia in 1952~3.
The Story revolves around a Political crisis in Britain that leads to the King appointing a Governor General for England , and leaving for Australia.
 
Top