Britain without (most of) the Black Death?

hey, all. i was wondering lately what everyone thinks would be the effects of the British Isles not being struck by the Black Death at the same time as IOTL, or at all. what i've thought on this for a long time is that a later Black Death would mean that fewer people die in the British Isles and as a result Britain comes out of the whole Black Death period more powerful, but now i'm not sure. thoughts?
 
The Black Death forced England (and Europe) to make some massive social changes.
In England it saw the end of serfdom (peasnats tied to the land) and lead the way to the Agricultiral Revolution (as machines where needed as less people where available) - ok this is a simplification.

Putting that to one side and assuming that England missed the Black Death and France didn't it would mean the English were more likely to be sucessful in the Edwardian campaigns.

This could have included the taking of Reims and Edward actually being crowned King of France.
 
The Black Death forced England (and Europe) to make some massive social changes.
In England it saw the end of serfdom (peasnats tied to the land) and lead the way to the Agricultiral Revolution (as machines where needed as less people where available) - ok this is a simplification.
i think that, eventually, if mainland Europe started developing machines and began outproducing Britain, they would start to make their own machines. maybe the OTL abandonment of slavery by the US could be an example for how long this could take?
Putting that to one side and assuming that England missed the Black Death and France didn't it would mean the English were more likely to be sucessful in the Edwardian campaigns.
yeah, i'd imagined that Britain would be better off in the Hundred Years' War as a result. iirc, IOTL France actually "won" that war overall, with the situation ITTL probably being that Britain "wins", though not in an overwhelming victory, i wouldn't think
As Georgie said, there are going to be some major sociological effects with serfdom continuing in Britain.
d'you think there would be an OTL equivalent to this type of society for reference? the South, for instance? or maybe Imperial Russia? (the last country to abolish serfdom IOTL, in 1861)
 
i think that, eventually, if mainland Europe started developing machines and began outproducing Britain, they would start to make their own machines. maybe the OTL abandonment of slavery by the US could be an example for how long this could take?yeah, i'd imagined that Britain would be better off in the Hundred Years' War as a result. iirc, IOTL France actually "won" that war overall, with the situation ITTL probably being that Britain "wins", though not in an overwhelming victory, i wouldn't thinkd'you think there would be an OTL equivalent to this type of society for reference? the South, for instance? or maybe Imperial Russia? (the last country to abolish serfdom IOTL, in 1861)

It's not necessary to look that far for analogues- I don't think comparing 19th C examples with a 14th C situation is particularly useful. Just look at a continuation of the existing social structures of the High Medieval era which, without the plague, aren't going to get shaken up that much.
 
i know the Confederacy and Russia are bad examples, considering the time period we're talking about; i just find it easier to visualize what a scenario could look like (at least at first) by thinking "events analogous to the real history of this country if they had happened to such-and-such country" as a way of thinking out what a TL could look like (kinda like how the Confederacy in TL-191 became an expy of Nazi Germany)

fewer changes to the British social structure actually works out very well to where i want Britain to go ITTL. any ideas for exactly how long it would remain mostly unchanged, if it would ever change at all? like, would we even get a British constitutional monarchy ITTL if their country wasn't as affected by the plague?
 
My feelings are that England would have moved that way, the Black Death just speeded things up.

We had had the Magna Carter and the De Montfort Parliment and England was already becoming a middle-class island (Napolean would describe us as a Nation of Shop Keepers 5 centruies later).

All this leads enevitably to a powerful 3rd estate and one that will only become stronger.
 
To even consider this Britain would have to be completely cut-off from the continent which is unlikely after the Roman conquest, if not earlier even. By the time the Black Death spreads over Europe England is in control of Gascony and already fighting the Hundred Years War, for instance. Nothing spreads a plague better than an army and its supply lines.
 
To even consider this Britain would have to be completely cut-off from the continent which is unlikely after the Roman conquest, if not earlier even. By the time the Black Death spreads over Europe England is in control of Gascony and already fighting the Hundred Years War, for instance. Nothing spreads a plague better than an army and its supply lines.
that was actually how i figured the plague would eventually come to Britain anyway ;) the difference is mainly that before then there was just less contact between Britain and the mainland until the Hundred Years' War. specifically, i had imagined that the plague is kept off the isles until about 1348, though now that i think about it, it might be more logical for minor outbreaks before then
 
IOTL the plague reached England in Spring 1349.

The Hundred Years War had begun in 1337.

The only way I can see something like the premise happening, baring ASBs, is:

- That the HYW is avoided, or delayed until well after the plague hits Europe.

- That maybe the period of most rapid expansion of the plague in Europe (1348) happens a bit slower, enough for doctored people to establish a pattern of spread in time, and they tell the King of England to to cut off every maritime contact with the continent.

- That he listens, and this is properly enforced through the whole of England (pretty big IF considering we are in the Middle Ages), with ships detained, turned back or burned right away before they make landfall, or with infected and suspects of infection being quarantined in sections of port cities etc. That this is also implemented in Ireland and imitated by Scotland so the plague does not find an alternate way to the islands pass the Channel.

Well, it seems just too complicated by the looks of it. Besides, didn't England import wheat from France at this time? Britain would be avoiding a plague (and that's supposing that it is successful at it) only to get famine for who knows how many years. After a while someone will ignore warnings, go to the continent to get grain and screw up the whole plan.

It would be more likely to see individual cities implementing quarantine plans and escaping unharmed like Milan IOTL. A kingdom or island-wide quarantine policy is probably too big to be enforced.
 
Top