Britain/Japan vs USA/France/Italy 1919

Our POD: After the German fleet is scuttled at Scappa Flow, Woodrow Wilson concludes that it was done with British connivance to deprive the other belligerents the fruits of their victory. He convinces France and Italy to send a joint ultimatum demanding that the British turn over half of their fleet to make up for the lost German ships. Britain, of course, refuses and is backed by Japan. War erupts


The Questions:

How does the fighting go?

I think the opening moves for the Americans/French/Italians would include seizing all British merchant ships in their ports and an American invasion of Canada. They would adopt the German strategy of starve Britain into surrender.

For the British and the Japanese, they try to isolate parts of the enemy fleets and sink them piecemeal. And this is coupled with a Japanese invasion of the Philippines.


How do the other powers react? Is there a sense that the Americans will win and now is the time to gang tackle the British Empire (Spain in Gibraltar, Guatemala in Belize and Argentina in the Falklands for example) ?
 
It very unlikely, that this would play out realistically, but nonetheless we could have a few toughts about the events.
US would only invade Canada if Canada is joining in with the British.
I'm not sure that the British would drag Canada in to this war so soon. Canada is vulnerable, so defending it would be hard.
On the other hand the terrain and weather conditions would create a problem for the US troops. They would need a hell of an amount of soldiers to hold the lands. Constant revolts and partisan attacks would be a large problem for them.
The naval capabilities of Britain are more fearsome at this time if we consider the other world powers and their capabilities. A joint French-Italian-US armada could overpower them, but you could bet on it, that the British would not wait for the enemy to unify.
They would wreck the French fleet that is close to them and tie down the rest around Italy and South France. The only threat would be the US fleet, but it would be too much of a two-sided coin for them to engage the British alone.
The Pacific would be an overkill by the British and Japanese against US. They could unify their forces rapidly and the US would find its situation similar to the Eastern seas.
Japanese and British forces would take all French land in the Pacific along with the Philippines and take on the US islands one by one.
The US strategy would probably consist of sending either a large portion of the Eastern fleet to the Pacific or part of the Pacific fleet East to have an upperhand on one of the theatres.
 
Options:
Britain laughs and hands over to the US Embassy half a gazillion pre-dreadnought type warships and lets America foot the bill for disposing of Britain's crap.
-
Britain decides to fight it out. If America's battlefleet leaves harbour, then the likelihood is that all three of the USN escort cruisers get sunk followed by RN cruisers torpedo spamming.

(This may sound like a Britwank but the RN has ~60 light cruisers on call with substantial gun and torpedo batteries. The USN has 3 second-rate scout cruisers. The ocean-going armoured cruisers are meat to the ten or so battlecruisers available + 3 Admiral-class suspended on the stocks. This is why spamming battleships to the exclusion of medium units was stupid.)

Italy can be neutralised with 2 Battle Squadrons of superdreadnoughts and adequate escorts plus anti-submarine ships.

France has to cover the Med, Atlantic and Channel. Commit the 5 ships of the Revenge class and some 12" battlecruisers to deal with their armoured cruisers.
 
The only threat would be the US fleet.

Not really. 2 Oceans, versus opponents with cruisers and battlecruisers. The battleships are impressive but deeply vulnerable without a screen of cruisers. Even the 120ish 4-stack destroyers aren't going to do the job, besides, they're totally unsuited to blue water ops.

How do the other powers react? Is there a sense that the Americans will win and now is the time to gang tackle the British Empire (Spain in Gibraltar, Guatemala in Belize and Argentina in the Falklands for example) ?

Spain is doing naval construction with Vickers-Armstrong establishing a yard in Spain. Argentina likes Britain at this point and is de facto an honourary Dominion.
 
Utterly improbable that Britain and the USA ever go to war post 1814 if for nothing more than the damage done to each others trade such a war would bring

Something massive would have to have changed for this happen.
 
ElMarquis and the Anglo-American War 1919:

22nd of June 1919, the American ambassador delivers a note to the Foreign Office, countersigned by the Italian and French governments, demanding that evidence of British complicity in the Scuttling of the Hochseeflotte be delivered to the representatives of these nations in Versaille in one week. Failing that, compensation comparable to the lost Hochseeflotte, each, will be accepted. Otherwise, the three nations will have the right to force the matter of compensation.

OrBat Britain 1919:

British Army strength aprox. 2.5 million men (1.5 million already demobbed, a further 2 million to be demobbed by end of 1920).
__________________________________________

9 Dreadnoughts.
14 Superdreadnoughts.
10 Battleships.
4 Dreadnought battlecruisers.
3 Superdreadnought battlecruisers.
2 Battlecruisers (15-inch).
3 Large Light Cruisers.
1 Heavy cruiser.
57 Light cruisers.
240 Destroyers.
1 Aircraft carrier.
__________________________________________

RAF:
Aprox. 4500-6500 aircraft, 100,000+ men.
__________________________________________

Japan:
Imperial Japanese Army: 1 million men.
IJN:
2 Semi-dreadnoughts.
2 Semi-dreadnought battlecruisers.
1 Dreadnought.
4 Superdreadnoughts.
4 Superdreadnought battlecruisers.
2 Battleships.
Half a dozen large cruisers.
Half a dozen small cruisers.
~60 destroyers.
__________________________________________

Versus:
__________________________________________

USA:
US "National Army" of 6 million men.
US Army Air Service of aprox. 10,000 men (demobbed from 200,000 men).
US Navy:
8 Dreadnoughts.
2 Superdreadnoughts.
8 Standard Battleships.
All cruisers obsolete.
~160 destroyers.
__________________________________________

France:
French Army 4.6 million men (morale shattered).
French Military Aeronautics: 3500 aircraft and 11,500 men.
French Navy:
7 Dreadnoughts.
~10ish large armoured cruisers.
~100 destroyers.
__________________________________________

Italy:
Italian Army: 4.5 million men.
5 Dreadnoughts.
Half a dozen large armoured cruisers.
A couple of dozen obsolete cruisers.
~60 destroyers.
 
An extremely unlikely and unrealistic scenario that neither Wilson would propose, or anyone would support (whether France, Italy or even within the US), but clearly the purpose of the thread is for the naval enthusiasts to talk about fleets and ships.
 
Woodrow Wilson concludes that it was done with British connivance to deprive the other belligerents the fruits of their victory. He convinces France and Italy to send a joint ultimatum demanding that the British turn over half of their fleet to make up for the lost German ships. Britain, of course, refuses and is backed by Japan. War erupts

ASB. Nobody in their right mind wants to risk widespread revolt... For a few ships, especially.

How does the fighting go?

The Senate rejects the motions of Wilson; Italy and France back down from this horrible, horrible idea. If the ASB make it pass, as soon as the orders are given to the respective Navies the Communists call for a successful general strike or three, and in Italy full scale revolution may well happen.

How do the other powers react? Is there a sense that the Americans will win and now is the time to gang tackle the British Empire (Spain in Gibraltar, Guatemala in Belize and Argentina in the Falklands for example) ?

Much popcorn shall be passed around; the USSR has a field day & sensible minds will happily mind their own business.
 
This would be pretty ridiculous and blatantly aggressive. And I'd love to see what the Wilson is doing internationally regarding the former Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires. This would be nothing short of an American plot to try and become the world's sole superpower 25 years early. Except it's plain stupid, since the American citizens who supported WWI will be utterly confused why they're fighting with their former allies (Franco-American friendship and Italian-American loyalties notwithstanding), why they went to war to begin with, and American citizens who didn't support the war (and were suppressed by Wilson's anti-constitutional measures i.e. Eugene Debs and other Socialists, if not extrajudicially assaulted/lynched) will be even more enraged. Could the United States have secured a unipolar world in 1919 - early 1920s? Yes. But it would take some monstrous efforts on the home front since this is not a war the American people will support. You'd need some sort of American proto-fascism, which would mix various "ethnic" types (Italian, German, etc.) alongside the indigenous Anglo core of the US and promote American supremacy over the world, and this movement would need to be popular (at least as much as the OTL Socialist Party), to have any real base for this. Also, this would mess up the US financial system which had invested a ton of money in the British for their victory.

And what's the German response to this? They must be pretty pissed that the US now decides to fight on their side.

It very unlikely, that this would play out realistically, but nonetheless we could have a few toughts about the events.
US would only invade Canada if Canada is joining in with the British.
I'm not sure that the British would drag Canada in to this war so soon. Canada is vulnerable, so defending it would be hard.
On the other hand the terrain and weather conditions would create a problem for the US troops. They would need a hell of an amount of soldiers to hold the lands. Constant revolts and partisan attacks would be a large problem for them.

Not really. Canada's major cities are very close to the US border, and in Western Canada have very easy terrain. The only problem is the Great Lakes which have been demilitarised since the early 19th century, but since the US controls the majority of the shipping on the Lakes they can more easily rig together some merchant cruisers before laying down actual lake battleships (probably monitors since the Canadians can't lay down anything to really oppose that). Whoever controls the Lakes controls Ontario and has easy access to Ottawa and the St. Lawrence.

As for the weather, don't do much in winter, plain and simple. Canada is not Russia. The Canadians have nowhere to retreat to, since their only major northern city is Edmonton (although Ottawa has some nice distance). Halifax and Cape Breton is also pretty defensible given the terrain (Isthmus of Chignecto) and Royal Navy support. There's a nice line of Vancouver, Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg, the Thunder Bay area, Windsor, Ontario, Ottawa, Montreal, Quebec, St. John, and Halifax which if occupied controls the vast majority of the Canadian population and economy with relatively few soldiers. The Canadian West is also sparsely populated and has many Americans as well as recent immigrants who can't really be counted on to join partisan bands. Although since the US is going blatantly aggressive and fascistic they might as well, and they'd be joined by Canadian socialists (supported by American socialists to some degree). On the other hand, we know partisan warfare does not work if no supplies are coming in. And the Royal Navy will have trouble shipping in supplies. But if we have ASB (since this is bordering on it) make the US population no worse than they were during World War I, this will be much easier.

The naval capabilities of Britain are more fearsome at this time if we consider the other world powers and their capabilities. A joint French-Italian-US armada could overpower them, but you could bet on it, that the British would not wait for the enemy to unify.

They would wreck the French fleet that is close to them and tie down the rest around Italy and South France. The only threat would be the US fleet, but it would be too much of a two-sided coin for them to engage the British alone.
The Pacific would be an overkill by the British and Japanese against US. They could unify their forces rapidly and the US would find its situation similar to the Eastern seas.

I think the optimal US strategy in the Pacific is to abandon the Philippines, Samoa, Guam, etc. and retreat to Hawaii, while harassing enemy shipping the whole way. Hawaii is almost impossible to take for the Anglo-Japanese. US shipbuilding accelerates and in 2 years the US has outbuilt both sides, and the counterattack across the Pacific begins.

In the Atlantic the US has a much easier time and should concentrate there to smash Canada and prevent any threat to the mainland (and Puerto Rico/Panama Canal). The US Marines take the Bahamas followed by an island hopping campaign aimed at Trinidad. Venezuela and Mexico cut off oil shipments to Britain and Japan under US pressure (the political situation--Mexican Revolution, Venezuela caudillos--in both nations can easily be exploited by the US at this point). Along with the loss of US oil, the Royal Navy (and IJN) are now limited as to their available oil reserves. This is very, very bad for them. France and Italy have trouble in the Atlantic, but in the Mediterranean can concentrate on the British and deal with Cyprus, Malta, etc. within 12-16 months. They can likely recruit Spain and Greece as allies to assist dismantling the British in the area. Portugal stays neutral out of economic reasons, fear of fighting Spain, as well as losing the colonial empire and the Azores.

Japanese and British forces would take all French land in the Pacific along with the Philippines and take on the US islands one by one.
The US strategy would probably consist of sending either a large portion of the Eastern fleet to the Pacific or part of the Pacific fleet East to have an upperhand on one of the theatres.

Not without a fight. Philippines can be defended pretty well and will delay the Anglo-Japanese advance long enough to fortify Hawaii even more.

Utterly improbable that Britain and the USA ever go to war post 1814 if for nothing more than the damage done to each others trade such a war would bring

Something massive would have to have changed for this happen.

I disagree with that, but I think the US going to war with Britain in 1919 is beyond nonsensical. If the US really had that sort of ill-will toward Britain (or Canada, which will serve as the US punching bag for anger against Britain), then the US would have stayed neutral in World War I, if not taken active effort to prevent Britain from raising finances, importing food/supplies, etc. and helping the CP out just as much. Or at the very least helped negotiate a peace around 1917/1918 which would more or less be status quo antebellum yet pave the way for US influence in Europe and the colonial empires.

ASB. Nobody in their right mind wants to risk widespread revolt... For a few ships, especially.



The Senate rejects the motions of Wilson; Italy and France back down from this horrible, horrible idea. If the ASB make it pass, as soon as the orders are given to the respective Navies the Communists call for a successful general strike or three, and in Italy full scale revolution may well happen.



Much popcorn shall be passed around; the USSR has a field day & sensible minds will happily mind their own business.

Basically a realistic assumption. This is more a scenario which is fun to wargame but otherwise plain nonsense.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
It very unlikely, that this would play out realistically, but nonetheless we could have a few toughts about the events.
US would only invade Canada if Canada is joining in with the British.
I'm not sure that the British would drag Canada in to this war so soon. Canada is vulnerable, so defending it would be hard.
War Plan Red clearly states that America will invade Canada regardless of whether the Canadians try to be neutral, and the complete annexation of Canada would be one of the primary goals of a war between the United Stated and Britain.
 
Top