Britain declares war on the Union in 1862....

DAv said:
In that state, I can see Britain concentrating a lot more in the Americas than in Europe. Also, would have their been an alliance of German nations like in the Franco Prussian War? Or just Prussia on its tod?

Not sure how the minor German states would shake out. But are you sure Britain would concentrate on the Americas in that situation? I think it's European allies would be in definite trouble while the Confederacy is at the time holding it's own. Austria's fighting a three front war and with it's ethnic trouble is likely to be torn apart.
 
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DAv said:
In that state, I can see Britain concentrating a lot more in the Americas than in Europe. Also, would have their been an alliance of German nations like in the Franco Prussian War? Or just Prussia on its tod?

In OTL Austro-Prussian war most of the big boys in Germany sided with Austria (Bavaria, Hanover, Saxony, Wurttemberg, Baden) a bunch of minor states found themselves on either side.

I don't think things will go well for the US coalition in this time line(making the assumption that things would actually play out like this, in reality I doubt Russia would get involved), the UK and CSA can handle the US so that leaves the continental powers to play about.

We essentially get the Austro-Prussian war but with France and the Ottomans added to Austria and Russia added to Prussia.

Given Russia had been given a sound thrashing ( lost 1/4 of a million people, although its Russia so that isn't a huge deal) five years earlier and Poland is about to go up like a bottle of pop they aren't going to be as much utility as France and the ottomans are.

Long story short, if the Poles rise then we probably see a restoration of Poland (the Austrians wouldn't be happy but Britain and France would push for it) which gets Russian Poland and Prussian Poland.

Italy gets kicked in the teeth and may or may not lose some territory.

Austria picks up some bits of Prussia (Silesia maybe) and perhaps a bit of the Ukraine.

The Ottomans gain back in the Caucuses.

The French will want the Rhine land but Britain and Austria would be opposed, perhaps a compromise position of a non Prussian Rhineland?

In America the CSA is independent; Britain possibly picks up parts of the US west coast.

Prussia is essentially destroyed as an independent power.

Another thing of interest is the question of Schleswig, when the Danish king dies the Danes will push their claim, if the war is still going on (1863) we could see an intervention of Sweden and Denmark against Prussia (assuming Prussia was still thinking about German unification at this point and not its own survival).


The balance of power on the continent becomes Austria + Germany run by Austria Vs France, Poland and Italy with Russia floating (attack Austria or Poland...).

A lot more stable than what we ended up with.
 
No way. Austrai just isn't stable enough to withstand the kind of pressure it would be under from outside and within in such a war. If it loses one major battle the whole house of cards falls apart.

It got beat by the Prussians alone in OTL just five years later. Now true, the Prussians will be dealing with the French as well here but the Austrians will be dealing with the Russians and Italians as well as Italian and Pan-slavic nationalists within it's own borders.
 
Timmy811 said:
No way. Austrai just isn't stable enough to withstand the kind of pressure it would be under from outside and within in such a war. If it loses one major battle the whole house of cards falls apart.

I think that is over estimating how unstable the Austro-Hungarian Empire was.

It got beat by the Prussians alone in OTL just five years later.

No it didn't, the Italians were involved in the Austro-Prussian war.

Now true, the Prussians will be dealing with the French as well here but the Austrians will be dealing with the Russians and Italians as well as Italian and Pan-slavic nationalists within it's own borders.

They already dealt with the Italians in OTL, as for the Russians they will be dealing with the Ottomans as well as a Polish uprising on its way.

And don't under estimate the French; they were a major power that the Prussians would have had their hands full dealing with one on one.
 
The Ubbergeek said:
Again, what happen to Spain and Portugal?

And anything happen in the distant colonies of Africa and Asia, and local powers?

Spain was in bad shape most of the 19th century. I don't see them making waves in fear their remaining colonies would be gobbled up. I don't think Portugal woul have done anything either.

There might be some unrest in India, but beyond that I don't see much action happening in the colonies given that France and Britain are the primire naval powers. The fighting would be constricted to North America, Europe and Antollia.
 
Darkling said:
I think that is over estimating how unstable the Austro-Hungarian Empire was.



No it didn't, the Italians were involved in the Austro-Prussian war.



They already dealt with the Italians in OTL, as for the Russians they will be dealing with the Ottomans as well as a Polish uprising on its way.

And don't under estimate the French; they were a major power that the Prussians would have had their hands full dealing with one on one.

Forgot about the Italians in the Austro-Prussian war, you got me there. However Russia fighting Austria and the Ottoman Empire with some Prussian and Italian help is another thing an entirely from Russia fighting the Ottomans, France, and Britain. Russia would have the upper hand.

I see the war in Europe being fought on even terms, while the war in North America is stacked in the Union's favor. Either side could win in either theater of course, but that's how I see the odds.
 
I guess it would the same with the dutches... They would side with England or Germany, though, or neutral?

Would Belgium survive this?
 
The Ubbergeek said:
Again, what happen to Spain and Portugal?

Nothing much, I imagine Portugal will nominally ally with the British alliance because they were pretty much a British vassal (plus Polish independence was popular in most of Europe).

And anything happen in the distant colonies of Africa and Asia, and local powers?

There isn't much of Africa under European control and I see little reason to suppose there would be an uprising.

India and Indochina, neither of which were looking ripe for turmoil.
 
The Ubbergeek said:
I guess it would the same with the dutches... They would side with England or Germany, though, or neutral?

Would Belgium survive this?

I think Belgium and the Dutch would want to stay nuetral. As for the Danish situation the Prussians have enough on their plate. That can wait until later.
 
Timmy811 said:
Forgot about the Italians in the Austro-Prussian war, you got me there. However Russia fighting Austria and the Ottoman Empire with some Prussian and Italian help is another thing an entirely from Russia fighting the Ottomans, France, and Britain. Russia would have the upper hand.

Not when Poland rebels they won't.

France + German states can take Prussia.
Austria can take Italy (did in OTL whilst the Prussians were attacking) which means whatever Austria has left over can take on Russia along with the Ottomans and the Poles.

Don’t forget Russia was still recovering from the Crimea and had just freed the Serfs which required adjustments in Russia; they weren’t ready for a fight.

I see the war in Europe being fought on even terms,

Maybe but I would still give it to the French.

while the war in North America is stacked in the Union's favor. Either side could win in either theater of course, but that's how I see the odds.[/QUOTE]

Britain + CSA is a walk in the park, Grant was right when he said it was all over if Britain got involved.

The blockade goes, the US gets blockaded in return and that alone is enough to hand victory to the CSA, without the US having to deploy forces north to keep an eye on Canada.
 

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The Ubbergeek said:
That could degenerate...

Wither of the hispanic peninsula countries? Would Spain and Portugal stay neutral, or sides? Against each others?

Would anything happen in Asia - India, China, and all? It may change the datas on the Meiji Revolution a bit...

Britain, France and Spain were allied in Mexico....
 

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The Ubbergeek said:
Again, what happen to Spain and Portugal?

And anything happen in the distant colonies of Africa and Asia, and local powers?

Obviously Spain and France are campaigning in North Africa. The British are interested in West Africa (using Negro troops from the Caribbean), South Africa is fairly stable.....
 
Darkling said:
Not when Poland rebels they won't.

France + German states can take Prussia.
Austria can take Italy (did in OTL whilst the Prussians were attacking) which means whatever Austria has left over can take on Russia along with the Ottomans and the Poles.

Don’t forget Russia was still recovering from the Crimea and had just freed the Serfs which required adjustments in Russia; they weren’t ready for a fight.



Maybe but I would still give it to the French.

while the war in North America is stacked in the Union's favor. Either side could win in either theater of course, but that's how I see the odds.

Britain + CSA is a walk in the park, Grant was right when he said it was all over if Britain got involved.

The blockade goes, the US gets blockaded in return and that alone is enough to hand victory to the CSA, without the US having to deploy forces north to keep an eye on Canada.[/QUOTE]

Britain's going to be alot more busy in Europe I think.

Spain was not heavily involved in the Mexican adventure, I think they'd try to disengage from a great power conflict.
 
Timmy811 said:
Britain's going to be alot more busy in Europe I think.

Against the great naval powers of Russia and Prussia????

Britain and France will easily be able to spare the ships to sort out the naval aspects of this fight.

And Britain will be primarily interested in keeping Canada safe.

Spain was not heavily involved in the Mexican adventure, I think they'd try to disengage from a great power conflict.

The biggest threat to Spain was the US, seeing them brought down a peg is a good idea.
 
Darkling said:
Against the great naval powers of Russia and Prussia????

Britain and France will easily be able to spare the ships to sort out the naval aspects of this fight.
Involved on the ground.
 
Portugal either stays out and profits through trade or engages in token involvment due to the long-standing friendship and alliance with the UK.


Spain really isn't going to be happy. It has nothing to gain either way but CSA independence...the CSA has made far too many noises about grabbing Cuba.


The Ottoman Empire's involvment would be disastrous for any allies. Their defensive capacity is uncertain, their ability to attack is extremely doubtful, and their direct involvment all but guarantees substantial Anglo-French forces needed to shore them up.


Polish uprisings last even less time than OTL if Prussia is working with Russia.


In 1866 Prussia flattened Austria, so it is very doubtful that they won't be able to hold their own four years earlier, except that now Russia is on Prussia's side. A scratch Prussian force holds the French as long as possible, while Russia and Prussia blitz Austria and maul the Ottomans. Then Prussian armaments and Russian numbers move west...if Prussia turns on Austria really badly we might see Hungary free and the Balkans(of not the slightest interest to Bismark) set up as several smaller states which the Russians will like, with new royal families related to the Hohenzollerns. Of course, if this becomes a long-term Prusso-Russo partnership...:eek:


Italy stays neutral. France does what it did in 1870, abandoning the Pope, and also persuades Austria to relinquish Venetia, as Napoleon III offered in 1866. With substantial gains and no fighting Italy has the last laugh.

Mexico may avoid war as well, as France needs every man at home.


Note that following the Prusso-Austrian war of 1866 France credited the Prussian 'needleguns' and raced to replace their own rifles. Therefore France was not so equipped in 1862. Prussia, having been so equipped in 1866 is very likely to be at least partially equipped with such rifles in 1862 so any French advance will be bloody against even a moderate Prussian defense. Then the hordes from the east arrive with the bulk of Prussia's armies. Not good for Paris.

Note that in 1866 a scratch corps of Prussians was able to mop up ALL of the lesser German states on Austria's side.


Note also the effect on French moral and attitude towards Napoleon III as they abandon the Pope and the Mexican adventure to defend themselves. Alternatively, the attitude if trouble begins while 50K or more are off in the Vatican and Vera Cruz. Poor Napoleon Three, heads Bismark wins, tails...


The British position is interesting as the tiny British Army is now dangerously liable to be hopelessly overstretched. Consider the needs:

1) There has to be a contingent with the CSA of some kind of size.

2) There must be a force large enough to help the Ottomans at least as far as holding Istanbul. If Russia reaches the Bosporus and Dardanelles, it really is all over and the war is a certified catastrophe for London.

3) They must send a substantial force to Canada and soon. If the Union throws a strong army(50,000?) and seizes key points on the St Lawrence then the Union has at least a year in which the British are stuck in a bloody campaign attacking fortified positions while the Union can do as it wishes with the bulk of Canada.

NOTE: This presumes a war to be resolved in terms of the 'state of possession'. There is an exceptionally ugly possibility here which I shall get into later.


4) Obviously if France falls, the UK faces an European continent entirely hostile or disinterested so troops are needed there also.

Now, the British Army during the war against the Zulus in 1879 could field less than 130,000 men and many were needed where they were. This leads to the probability of the trained veterans being thrown away early. An early defeat for the British could be very dangerous, and British officers are smart enough to realize that. Nonetheless, in several locations aggressive action may be a necessity so if the British send too many to Canada and suddenly the Ottomans crumble...

To make a long story short, British army involvment is going to involve almost every unit being rushed somewhere followed by six months or more putting a larger force together during which reserves will be extremely thin.


One important note: This war is liable to resemble the long series of French and English wars in the 17th and 18th centuries, in which the results on the ground often clashed sharply with the terms of the treaty. In other words, if Great Britain is doing very poorly in Euopre any gains in North America are liable to be sad memoriesof what might have been.

One must seriously question whether, if France also falls, Great Britain is ready to fight a much bloodier version of the Napoleonic Wars against much stronger enemies, and all of it started for a slave society.


I mentioned the state of possession, which basically means that if you hold something when peace talks convene, you keep it. There is liable to be an exception to this rule. Contrary to the beliefs of some, the US was not drooling at the thought of overrunning Canada in 1862 and while the idea of CSA independence in exchange for the western half of Canada might have been seen as eminently reasonable in Paris, Berlin, or St Petersburg(if not so pleasant in London), it is not so certain that the US would agree.

Of course, if the US is doing well on both fronts the British may cede much of Canada and retire from the war in disgust while the ACW then resumes its normal schedule.

Although a CSA certain that foreign aid will not come might negotiate a settlement.​

However, if the US is doing well in Canada but barely holding its own vis a vis the CSA/British forces, perhaps on the defensive, what happens if the US explains that they don't want Canada, but very much want the CSA and will gladly relinquish any Canadian soil held in return for a very...perfidious sort of favor...heh heh heh...:eek:
 
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