Britain and US stay bitter enemies

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If there was a 19th century POD (like the Trent Affair blowing up) several interesting butterflies also are likely. First, the curtailment of British investments in the US. IOTL large amounts of capital flowed from the UK to the US in the post-CW US, funding industrial expansion and growth, particularly in the western states. Railroad construction would have been slower and the westward expansion more difficult.

Second, in the later 19th century, there was a tendency for wealthy Americans to marry into titled European families, most often British ones, leading to an Anglophile upper class in the US, part of the development of the "special relationship." The UK might well have not had the Anglo-American Winston Churchill as a result, and Germany might have had more princelings with American family links.
 
If the president was pro-German rather than pro-British during WWI, it is entirely possible that the US could have taken the German side. The reason why we ended up in WWI was because Wilson was an Anglophile who even considered the British "constitution" to be superior to the US Constitution. During World War I, Wilson even arrested a filmmaker for making a movie about the American Revolution.

If we had a president who was as pro-German as the Wilson was pro-Britain, he would have probably found some excuse to lie us into WWI on the German side.

Had America entered WWI on the German side, the treaty to end the war would have been very harsh on Serbia (possibly annexation by Austria?), considering that the Serbians started the war. I think Germany and Austria would have enacted a harsh "peace" comparable to Versailles upon the British and French who came to the aid of the Serbian aggressor. Likely, the revanche movement in France would have led to a fascist France (France was a hotbed of anti-semitism in OTL with the Dreyfuss Affair in the 1890s) that was even more determined to take back Alsace-Lorraine. Britain might fall into a Civil War in the 1930s between the Communists and the Fascists (similar to OTL Spain). I don't think Fascist France would be as successful in their inevitable invasion of Germany as OTL Nazi Germany was in its invasion of France, so I think American involvement in the 2nd European War would be unnecessary. After that war, I see the Central Powers remaining the dominant power in the world, with the Kaiser and Emperor still on the throne to the present day.

If America had stayed out of WWI, I see the war ending in a stalemate in the summer of 1917, with a negotiated peace (status quo antebellum), with no Communism in Russia (without the War, the Provisional Government would never have fallen to the Bolsheviks) and no fascism. The memory of the bloody stalemate of the Great War would likely make European powers think twice before starting a war.

Where to begin. Without some major PoDs in the 19th century (such as British/French intervention in the ACW), there is almost no way the US would consider entering WW1 on the CP side. Ties of history, language and democratic politics would have made any electable US president at most neutral, not pro-German, in 1914-1918.

Arguably, Wilson was absolutely sincere in his original intent to keep the US neutral but German actions (perhaps necessary, perhaps not) eventially made this impossible. As Massey points out in Castles of Steel, there was a big emotional difference between the British Naval Blockade (which illegally stopped American ships and seized American cargo) and the German unrestricted submarine blockade (which illegally sank ships and killed people). Both involved violations of international law but the effect of the more extreme German blockade actions made it impossible for any US president to maintain a pretense of neutrality. Add to this the virtual monopoly the British had in controlling cross-Atlantic communication, and spreading propoganda about "the Hun", the die was cast.

Perhaps a Bryan presidency might have maintained a more neutral stance and kept the USA out of WW1, but even Bryan (who was motivated more by Pacifism than pro-Germanness) would not have ever considered war on Germany's side. If the USA had not intervened, an armistice is possible, but there is no evidence the wartime German government would have ever considered a status quo antebellum solution. It took collapse on the Front and revolution at home to make this possible. The A-H Empire was already doomed. If anything the war would end with revolutions and mutinies on all sides, more social upheavals, and a real mess.
 
With a PoD that has war somehow break out over the First Moroccan Crisis, it becomes easier to get the US to join the war on the Central Powers side. Theodore Roosevelt was still President at that point, and he was somewhat sympathetic to the German position and his support was actively courted by German diplomats. If war were to break out in such a way that France or Britain appeared to be the aggressor, I could see TR eventually pushing for US involvement on the German side with freedom of the seas (British blockade of Germany) as a casus belli.
 

Cook

Banned
Yeah, whilst its very easy to have a US and UK hating each other with 19th century events, by 1900 all the conflicts had pretty much been resolved and the economic relationship was extremely solid and profitable for both sides.

Was there much sign of them actually hating each other?
While they fought wars twice they seem to have been over specific issues and once resolved left no lingering animosity. Trade and good relations seem to have been quickly restored. The Americans were even fighting an undeclared war at sea against the French in conjunction with the British shortly after independence which seems strange given the aid they received from France during the War of Independence.

I was trying to see generate a way of developing a nice healthy mindless hatred and rivalry for each other. Something like France and England had for centuries, or everybody in the Balkans had (has) for all their neigbours.
 
If we had a president who was as pro-German as the Wilson was pro-Britain, he would have probably found some excuse to lie us into WWI on the German side.

Had America entered WWI on the German side, the treaty to end the war would have been very harsh on Serbia (possibly annexation by Austria?), considering that the Serbians started the war. After that war, I see the Central Powers remaining the dominant power in the world, with the Kaiser and Emperor still on the throne to the present day.

Could this have prevented Hitler's rise to power and WW2?
 


I was trying to see generate a way of developing a nice healthy mindless hatred and rivalry for each other. Something like France and England had for centuries, or everybody in the Balkans had (has) for all their neigbours.

Seems like the only two things that would do that would be (1) A failed ARW, followed by British treatment of America the way they treated Ireland, followed by a successful American rebellion later on, possibly during an alt-Napoleonic War. Harsh treatment by the Brits becomes a memory that persists for generations. Or (2) a British intervention in the CW that results in southern victory. Subsequently Britain makes the CSA a close ally and trade partner, resulting in economic resentment in the US going into the 20th century, Both would have incredible butterflies in both Europe and the Americas
 
Was there much sign of them actually hating each other?
While they fought wars twice they seem to have been over specific issues and once resolved left no lingering animosity. Trade and good relations seem to have been quickly restored. The Americans were even fighting an undeclared war at sea against the French in conjunction with the British shortly after independence which seems strange given the aid they received from France during the War of Independence.

I was trying to see generate a way of developing a nice healthy mindless hatred and rivalry for each other. Something like France and England had for centuries, or everybody in the Balkans had (has) for all their neigbours.


The British (or rather those higher up in the government more often than not) saw us as upstarts. You see this attitude during the trent affair as well. Not to mention the arms navel vessels that were sold/given to the south.

As for signs of Hatred. Would the election of Andrew Jackson count? He absolutely hated the British and didn't make this a secret and yet people still was voted into office. This might not be concrete proof but it's something to consider.
 
Seems like the only two things that would do that would be (1) A failed ARW, followed by British treatment of America the way they treated Ireland, followed by a successful American rebellion later on, possibly during an alt-Napoleonic War. Harsh treatment by the Brits becomes a memory that persists for generations. Or (2) a British intervention in the CW that results in southern victory. Subsequently Britain makes the CSA a close ally and trade partner, resulting in economic resentment in the US going into the 20th century, Both would have incredible butterflies in both Europe and the Americas


I've thought about the confederate victory and perhaps it's my skeptical nature but i would think that Britain would try to annex or just plain absorb the southern states back in and perhaps start another war. As much as i love the south we are not very industrial, and sadly i think that might be vital to remaining a strong and independent nation.
 

Paul Large

Banned
In 1932 FDR is killed this stopping any chance for the new deal to succeed. With over 50% unimployed in some communities a military/FBI overthrough of the American Government occurs. Feeling this is there last and only chance to pull there Country out of its current situation. Over time with J. Edgar Hover and the military controlling the USA government and with there absolute power they were able to pull away from dispar similar to pre war Germany. Canada remaining Democratic was also able to recover from the depresion. World war 2
Begins and America joins earlier then in our timeline as public opinion was not an issue. The war ending in 1943 in Europe and 1944 in the pacific. American is a huge super power but no bomb as of yet. Tensions with Russia begin to occur as the line of meeting is in the far side of Poland because of USA early entry of the war. A stronger British empire is the first to the bomb and uses this as a leveling devise against its new Cold War enemies Russia and sadly America. As tensions with the USA and Canada start to grow post war because Americans looking for Freedom and better jobs run to Canada. One of the worlds largest borders must now be fully closed because of saturation. But America does not attack for fear of the bomb. So now Canada trades with Europe and Asia. As Americans now will not work with Canada at all. Small towns that were half and half now have huge walls splitting them up I could go on and on with this timeline but here you go
 
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