Britain and Commonwealth Dominions in Operation Barabarossa

While I'm not relatively new to this website, I would consider myself fairly amateurish in the alternate history field. So what I was wondering is, could the Third Reich somehow convinced the United Kingdom and the Commonwealth Dominions into a negotiated peace settlement and then got them involved in Operation Barbarossa fighting against the Soviets? I see them being a much more reliable ally than the Romanians, Spanish, Italians, Hungarians etc. in the south.

Anyway possible is fine, just looking for an excuse to put the Commonwealth on the side of the Germans.
 
No. Even if you can persuade the UK to make peace with Germany, why on earth would they turn around and ally with the Germans?

You'd need to establish an alliance between Britain and Germany before the war kicked off. To do that would require a different Germany, a different Britain, or both. I don't think it's achievable with the Third Reich.
 
I very much doubt it. While it's not totally implausible that the UK could choose to make a 'white peace' after the Battle of Britain and the start of Barbarossa, I don't think Hitler could enforce its participation in the latter. After all, Vichy France didn't send any troops to the Eastern Front, - or did it?

It's just barely possible a High Tory government (Halifax rather than Churchill as PM) might wish to allow a Volunteer Legion to show European solidarity against Communism. But that would risk civil unrest in the UK and maybe a loss of a parliamentary majority, so probably not.
 
I very much doubt it. While it's not totally implausible that the UK could choose to make a 'white peace' after the Battle of Britain and the start of Barbarossa, I don't think Hitler could enforce its participation in the latter. After all, Vichy France didn't send any troops to the Eastern Front, - or did it?

It's just barely possible a High Tory government (Halifax rather than Churchill as PM) might wish to allow a Volunteer Legion to show European solidarity against Communism. But that would risk civil unrest in the UK and maybe a loss of a parliamentary majority, so probably not.


You need, not a Halifax Government but a Mosley Government to do that!

On France: "The Legion of French Volunteers Against Bolshevism (French: Légion des volontaires français contre le bolchévisme, or simply Légion des volontaires français, LVF) was a collaborationist French militia founded on 8 July 1941. It gathered various collaborationist parties, including Marcel Bucard's Mouvement Franciste, Marcel Déat's National Popular Rally, Jacques Doriot's French Popular Party, Eugène Deloncle's Social Revolutionary Movement, Pierre Clémenti's French National-Collectivist Party and Pierre Costantini's French League. It had no formal link with the Vichy regime, even though it was recognized as an "association of public usefulness" by Pierre Laval's government in February 1943.[1] Philippe Pétain, head of state of Vichy France, personally disapproved of Frenchmen wearing German uniforms and never went beyond individual and informal words of support to some specific officers.[2]..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_French_Volunteers_Against_Bolshevism
 
Quite apart from anything else, there's a lot of sympathy for communism in the UK in the late 30s and 40s, which didn't really dissipate until the Cold War. Going to war with the USSR without severe provocation was going to see widespread strike action, mass demonstrations &c.
Allying with the Germans to do it, especially if the Germans are still occupying countries that were British allies this time last year? It's not just going to be the CPGB and union hardliners.
 

cpip

Gone Fishin'
The only way I could see to doing it would be if you had a divergence well before 1939 -- a British government who was unwilling to guarantee Poland, and possibly a Germany that hadn't invaded France.

A Britain strong enough to join a war against the Soviet Union would be strong enough not to feel they had to back down to Germany in 1940-41.
 
Say Oswald Mosley and the British Union of Fascists (or one of the more hard-right National Socialist parties in Britain) got into power well before the war, the people of Britain didn't become increasingly antagonized from Nazi Germany as a result of their fears of German expansionism, and Hitler and this timeline's British Prime Minister managed to foster an alliance. THEN British neutrality in the Second World War is possible, provided the British also abandon their alliance with the French or convince the French either to not support Poland or to loosen the Treaty of Versailles. Without this kind of abandonment of their OTL stances, Britain will almost inevitably end up in a war with Germany. Mutual Anglo-French comradeship at this point was too strong for the Brits to simply abandon France in a war with Germany even if the Germans and the Brits had gotten all chummy recently. Even if OTL Britain and France had kept up appeasement even as Germany invaded Poland, France and Britain wouldn't support Germany, and, if Germany invaded the Soviet Union (or even Yugoslavia, Greece, Denmark, Norway, Holland or Belgium) at this point, Britain and France would probably look at this as the last straw and declare war on Germany then and there.

I read somewhere that Nazi Germany throughout the war attempted to court Indian nationalists into an alliance - maybe if the Germans started early enough and gained enough of a following with the Indian nationalist movement during a war with Britain, they could foster a successful Indian rebellion, and an axis India MIGHT support Germany in a war with the Soviet Union if they were forced to do so. Uh... Sealion magically works and Germany is able to force a British peace settlement with promises of British support in their upcoming invasion of Russia? These scenarios become increasingly improbable the more you look into it. The POD would have to come way back, like if Britain lost the First World War and Britain and Germany somehow both ended up fascist and targeted the Soviet Union together as part of a bizarre alternate World War II. I mean, Italy and Germany ended up on the same side after fighting in WWI, and Italy suffered a fascist coup despite winning the war, so hey, anything's possible.
 
Thanks a ton ladies and gents. So if a British helping a fascist Germany is very unlikely, what about a democratic Germany? Would I be able to explore the pre-fascist Communism fears the West had during that time period? Would a Cold War ensue, or would we see hot war breaking out?
 

Pomphis

Banned
Thanks a ton ladies and gents. So if a British helping a fascist Germany is very unlikely, what about a democratic Germany?

I am not sure whether you have to go back that far. IMO you certainly need a pre-39 and probably pre-38 POD. That still leaves 33-37. OTOH I just don´t see the UK participating in a war of aggression against the USSR. They had intervened in the civil war, for little effect. WW1 was something quite recent, and very few people wanted a repeat / other great war. WW1 had been too horrible. Remember, even hitler campaigned with the promise of guaranteeing peace in 32/33. In 36 he made a speech about germany only wanting peace. Rearmement was not sold as a first step for war, but as necessary to enable germany to defend herself against poland for example. IMO you need a more aggressive USSR, and a basically defensive war against it for the UK to consider a participation. Maybe stalin is less cautious, or somebody else becomes leader. If the USSR invades poland in 1936 or so, there might be a general anti-communist alliance.
 
I'm guessing this means Germany doesn't go through with any of the pre-war expansionism and Czechoslovakia, Austria and Poland remain independent. Germany (whether it be the Weimar Republic or a post-Weimar reformist government that beats Hitler and the Nazi Party out in 1933) would probably only end up in a land war with the Soviet Union if the Soviets annexed Poland, or they invaded Poland and Poland promptly got the support of the democratic powers. I feel that Germany after World War One aligning herself with Britain and France isn't outside the realms of believability, although it would become much more believable without the harsh terms of the Treaty of Versailles, which really sowed the seeds for German fascism in large part. If Germany, France and Britain formed a sort of post-war triple alliance, this might mean Japan remains on the side of the allies, who ignore or even sponsor Japanese expansionism on the Chinese mainland. The League of Nations in this scenario might succeed, perhaps drawing the United States in (almost definitely doing so when an eventual war between the League and the Soviet Union begins). The Soviet Union would remain ostracized and feared as an enemy to the nations of this new Europe, who form a sort of ur-NATO pact against the Soviet Union. In this scenario, yes, Democratic Germany would definitely gain the support not only of the British Commonwealth nations, but also France and even Japan and the United States, in their war with the Soviet Union.
 

Pomphis

Banned
I feel that Germany after World War One aligning herself with Britain and France isn't outside the realms of believability,

Yes, but IMO unlikely. But if the USSR attacks poland, and UK and france back poland, that would be a great opportunity to get rid of the restrictions of the ToV. "Let us rearm and we join you and supply a couple million troops for the defense against communism" would be attractive for governments who are just telling their electorates that they will now fight another big war, this time to defend poland. Especially if the alternative is that tens or hundreds of thousands british and french conscripts will die in eastern europe, while germany sits back and makes money from selling them weapons and ammo and stuff. And for germany it is far better to fight an aggressive USSR in poland than a few years later in germany.
 
It should be noted that even if a Fascist government got into power in Britain (something which would probably require a WWI POD, that would be likely to butterfly the Third Reich itself) there's no guarantee that this government will be pro-German. In fact given that fascists are likely to lack the reluctance of the OTL British government to see a repeat of the First War a Fascist Britain might well just flatten Germany after they re-militarise the Rhineland.
 
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So I have been thinking this over and my idea is something like this; Hindenburg and the Reichstag stand up to Hitler and don't allow him to become Chancellor. With Hitler in a not so strong position, a Democratic Party gains a majority in the Reichstag. Stalin, now seeing a almost completely democratic Europe against him, decides to level the playing field. In 1935, he invades and annexes Finland and the Baltic states (he is not restricted by the purges as per OTL). Seeing Poland and and the Balkans as Stalin's next targets, the allies, consisting of France, the United Kingdom and the Comminwealth guarantee their independence. They also recognise their weakness in armaments and need a strong barrier against the Communist Front. Seeing this in Germany, th allies renegotiate the Treaty of Versailles, allowing Germany to rearm and rebuild their armed forces and reoccupy the Rhineland. The amount of reparations that needed to be paid by Germany are significantly reduced, allowing the German economy to recover at a much faster rate (Germany must join the allies). In 1937, the Soviet Union invades Poland, but the allies immediately issue an ultimatum to the Soviet Union demanding they withdraw from all Polish territory or face war. The ultimatum is ignored and the allied powers declare war on the Soviet Union. This is all I have so far. Feedback is more than welcome.
 
I don't see the French willing to drop Versailles - they could be pushed into it if Britain says "yeah we no longer care" but that's going to sour relations. That would impair any such allied group.

Things would have to change a lot for Stalin to send in the tanks too. He wouldn't just see the western states against him, he'd have to think they'll outright be coming for him soon enough and decides he wants a buffer state(s).
 
So I have been thinking this over and my idea is something like this; Hindenburg and the Reichstag stand up to Hitler and don't allow him to become Chancellor. With Hitler in a not so strong position, a Democratic Party gains a majority in the Reichstag. Stalin, now seeing a almost completely democratic Europe against him, decides to level the playing field. In 1935, he invades and annexes Finland and the Baltic states (he is not restricted by the purges as per OTL). Seeing Poland and and the Balkans as Stalin's next targets, the allies, consisting of France, the United Kingdom and the Comminwealth guarantee their independence. They also recognise their weakness in armaments and need a strong barrier against the Communist Front. Seeing this in Germany, th allies renegotiate the Treaty of Versailles, allowing Germany to rearm and rebuild their armed forces and reoccupy the Rhineland. The amount of reparations that needed to be paid by Germany are significantly reduced, allowing the German economy to recover at a much faster rate (Germany must join the allies). In 1937, the Soviet Union invades Poland, but the allies immediately issue an ultimatum to the Soviet Union demanding they withdraw from all Polish territory or face war. The ultimatum is ignored and the allied powers declare war on the Soviet Union. This is all I have so far. Feedback is more than welcome.


I personally see that as the most feasible way of getting the British Commonwealth to enter a way with Germany against the USSR. The trickiest thing to achieve in the scenario is a democratic party in the Riechstag. Hyper inflation destroyed the middle centralist parties as they had proven to be incapable of acting in government to curb it. I think you would need some kind of loans or lessening of the reparations. Does anyone know how much Britain received from reparations? Perhaps the Brits giving up their portion would be enough to allow an easing of inflation in Germany and thus a reasonable political party to be in power, and combined with loans similar to the Marshal plan would reinvigorate the British economy to make up for the loss of the reparations?
 
I personally see that as the most feasible way of getting the British Commonwealth to enter a way with Germany against the USSR. The trickiest thing to achieve in the scenario is a democratic party in the Riechstag. Hyper inflation destroyed the middle centralist parties as they had proven to be incapable of acting in government to curb it. I think you would need some kind of loans or lessening of the reparations. Does anyone know how much Britain received from reparations? Perhaps the Brits giving up their portion would be enough to allow an easing of inflation in Germany and thus a reasonable political party to be in power, and combined with loans similar to the Marshal plan would reinvigorate the British economy to make up for the loss of the reparations?

I think the main problem with that is the fact that the Great Depression absolutely destroyed the World's economies. The main causes of the Great Depression, in the terms of Eric Scott from Quora were, "Stock speculation and mass selling, limiting spending by families and businesses, government policy decisions, income stratification, and a host of other alleged causes...". Unless I can find a way to solve those problems, I just don't see Britain handing back their money and the US giving out loans in the middle of a Depression.
 
I don't see the French willing to drop Versailles - they could be pushed into it if Britain says "yeah we no longer care" but that's going to sour relations. That would impair any such allied group.

Things would have to change a lot for Stalin to send in the tanks too. He wouldn't just see the western states against him, he'd have to think they'll outright be coming for him soon enough and decides he wants a buffer state(s).

As for the first part, in the 1920s, many Britons saw France as the main threat to peace. This was exacerbated by the fact that France did not suffer a recession like many other European countries, had one of the largest military's in the world at the time and refused to disarm. This was further corroborated by London believing the French wanted European dominance. As for the second part, I see where your coming from there and I will definitely change the PoD to reflect this. I am considering the Allies pursuing aggressive policies against the Soviet Union, kinda in the way they did against Italy for their actions in the Mediterranean
 
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