Brian Boru- Effects of A United Ireland?

Joshuapooleanox

Joshuapooleanox

Brian Boru, the greatest sounding beer ever. Nah I'm kidding. He was a great general, great king, great administrator, and he even won all his battles.

However he died in 1014 after his last battle where he died of wounds and injuries, and Ireland fell back into chaos and disorder until the English arrived.

So... What if he had won? What if Ireland was united under the 'Emperor of the Irish' and never faced English conquest?

(Colonisation is a good end goal to think about here)

Thanks for Reading!

-Josh
 
Artaxerxes

Artaxerxes

Banned
The effects of having a "King of the Irish" title in existence would have been interesting in terms of legitimacy and adding it to the British crown.


Not sure it can hold out from English conquest forever due to the population differences, it might also be useful to the French or Scottish.
 

Monter

Well... he actually won.

Anyways, the problem with Ireland is the very nature of the Irish clan system and the succession that always lead to trouble (let's not forget how BB got the throne on first place).

So though he (and most importantly his son) may survive the problems in Ireland require more time, maybe in the end of the century or the next an equivalent to the Davidian Revolution happens.
 

Avalon

Artaxerxes said:
The effects of having a "King of the Irish" title in existence would have been interesting in terms of legitimacy and adding it to the British crown.


Not sure it can hold out from English conquest forever due to the population differences, it might also be useful to the French or Scottish.
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The population of Ireland wasn't always dwarfed by England. There was very little (a million or so) difference until the 1700s so with butterflies, luck and potatoes the population difference doesn't have to be necessarily crippling considering for most of history there were less people in Portugal than Ireland.

http://www.grantonline.com/grant-family-genealogy/Records/population/population-ireland.htm

http://www.politics.ie/forum/history/156856-population-ireland-ancient-times-until-great-famine.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_England#Historical_population
 

Fabius Maximus

Avalon said:
The population of Ireland wasn't always dwarfed by England. There was very little (a million or so) difference until the 1700s so with butterflies, luck and potatoes the population difference doesn't have to be necessarily crippling considering for most of history there were less people in Portugal than Ireland.
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Plus, English interest in conquering Ireland was practically non-existent until Henry II came along, and after he died most English monarchs didn't really pay the place much attention until the Tudor period. There's no guarantee ITTL that the English would even want to conquer Ireland in the first place.
 

Monter

Joshuapooleanox said:
Colonial possibilities of a successful Irish Kingdom?
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Clondarf happened in the earlier 11th century, so a concrete view over Ireland's policy during TTL 16th century is impossible.

Speaking solely over geography and assuming Ireland by the 1500s-1600s has an unifies (non-HRE) government with an existing bourgeois class we could have the High Kingdom in a great position for North American exploration and settlement. Adventures in the East Indies are possible, but would require more than unity to be feasible, they could end up like Denmark with a few outposts or end in the level of the Dutch.
 
Joshuapooleanox

Joshuapooleanox

Monter said:
Clondarf happened in the earlier 11th century, so a concrete view over Ireland's policy during TTL 16th century is impossible.

Speaking solely over geography and assuming Ireland by the 1500s-1600s has an unifies (non-HRE) government with an existing bourgeois class we could have the High Kingdom in a great position for North American exploration and settlement. Adventures in the East Indies are possible, but would require more than unity to be feasible, they could end up like Denmark with a few outposts or end in the level of the Dutch.
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A thirteen colonies level Irish colonisation?
 

Garbageman

Well, Brian was in his seventies, so isn't it more important that his son Murrough survives the battle for the kingship to survive?
 

Avalon

Joshuapooleanox said:
You get what we mean Garbageman, but great point. Once his son is crowned 'Emperor of the Irish', what are the prospects?
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It would be better if he was crowned King of the Irish or better yet Ireland as it would enforce the idea that he is the highest authority on the island to outsiders and more importantly his 'lord' especially the 'kings'of Connaught, Ulster and Leinster if there are any. also while I'm not 100% sure due to the fact of it's location Dublin would most likely be capital after some time at least until they find 'Murica.
 
Joshuapooleanox

Joshuapooleanox

Avalon said:
It would be better if he was crowned King of the Irish or better yet Ireland as it would enforce the idea that he is the highest authority on the island to outsiders and more importantly his 'lord' especially the 'kings'of Connaught, Ulster and Leinster if there are any. also while I'm not 100% sure due to the fact of it's location Dublin would most likely be capital after some time at least until they find 'Murica.
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I said Emperor as its above king (different debate) and how well could we see them do?
 

Fabius Maximus

Joshuapooleanox said:
I said Emperor as its above king (different debate) and how well could we see them do?
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The usual title was High King, I believe. Emperor in this period referred specifically to the Roman Emperor, and had the monarchs of Ireland started styling themselves Emperors the reaction from the rest of Christendom would probably involve a lot of laughter and eye-rolling. (When in a similar move the kings of Spain started styling themselves Imperatores Totius Hispaniae, this was largely ignored by everybody else and the title itself quietly dropped sometime in the twelfth century.)
 
Joshuapooleanox

Joshuapooleanox

Fabius Maximus said:
The usual title was High King, I believe. Emperor in this period referred specifically to the Roman Emperor, and had the monarchs of Ireland started styling themselves Emperors the reaction from the rest of Christendom would probably involve a lot of laughter and eye-rolling. (When in a similar move the kings of Spain started styling themselves Imperatores Totius Hispaniae, this was largely ignored by everybody else and the title itself quietly dropped sometime in the twelfth century.)
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Brian created that title, and it nearly worked. I imagine they'd still use it later on.
 

Meshakhad

1. Emperor won't stick. It'll be High King.

2. As some have said, having Brian's son survive would do just as well. He'd been laying the groundwork for a dynasty.

3. Most likely, Ireland remains independent. A personal union with England could happen, though. But even in that case, we'd end up with an independent Ireland in the 20th century - and probably a Gaelic-speaking one at that.
 
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