Bretagne for Anjou

Anyone well acquainted with French history under the monarchy knows of the triple death of le Petit Dauphin,his wife and the duc de Bretagne (ie the family ofLouis XV). My question is, what if Mme de Ventadour had saved tthe little duc de Bretagne (as well as/instead of the duc d'Anjou?(OTL Louis XV))
 
Anyone well acquainted with French history under the monarchy knows of the triple death of le Petit Dauphin,his wife and the duc de Bretagne (ie the family ofLouis XV). My question is, what if Mme de Ventadour had saved tthe little duc de Bretagne (as well as/instead of the duc d'Anjou?(OTL Louis XV))

Well anything really. The child was so young he was essentially a blank slate. I suppose with a slightly older Louis XV, the regency would be shorter. But it is an interesting idea to have both survive. With the succession slightly more secure, l'infante Reine would become Queen of France.
 
That always seemed odd to me. I mean, measles?

When I was a lad , I had measles. My sister had measles. Everyone I knew had measles. It was universal. Nobody ever died of it, or even got seriously sick.

We didn't have any medical treatment, or even a doctor. Just the usual sick child stuff, bed rest, soup, cod liver oil, whatever else the Grandmothers' Family Physician book recommended. Same as everybody, same as our parents and grandparents before us.

The young child, maybe I guess. But two healthy adults?

I know some sources say smallpox, which makes the outcome more understandable, but deepens the mystery. After all mealses and smallpox are two diseases that contemporary physicians knew very well indeed. and they are not really all that confusable. It's hard to see them getting the diagnosis that wrong. And smallpox wasn't shameful, there would be no reason to try to cover it up.
 
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Flubber

Banned
When I was a lad , I had measles. My sister had measles. Everyone I knew had measles. It was universal. Nobody ever died of it, or even got seriously sick.


You, your sister, and everyone you knew didn't have measles. You all had rubella and there's a very great difference. Everyone who doesn't know better calls rubella measles, just as everyone tends to call a cold the flu.

Measles kills, sometimes directly but more usually via follow-on complications like pneumonia, encephalitis, and diarrhea. That's why it's tracked by the WHO and national health organizations.

In the early 1500s, measles killed over half of the natives of Cuba and Honduras. Measles killed the Incan emperor, his heir, and a sizable portion of the empire's population sparking a civil war which Pizarro exploited to great effect. In the 1800s, measles killed a quarter of the population of Hawaii and a third of the population of Fiji. As late as the 1920s and 30s, measles would kill up to a third of those infected.

Be thankful you didn't have measles.
 
That always seemed odd to me. I mean, measles?

When I was a lad , I had measles. My sister had measles. Everyone I knew had measles. It was universal. Nobody ever died of it, or even got seriously sick.

We didn't have any medical treatment, or even a doctor. Just the usual sick child stuff, bed rest, soup, cod liver oil, whatever else the Grandmothers' Family Physician book recommended. Same as everybody, same as our parents and grandparents before us.

The young child, maybe I guess. But two healthy adults?

I know some sources say smallpox, which makes the outcome more understandable, but deepens the mystery. After all mealses and smallpox are two diseases that contemporary physicians knew very well indeed. and they are not really all that confusable. It's hard to see them getting the diagnosis that wrong. And smallpox wasn't shameful, there would be no reason to try to cover it up.

Didn't Louis XV die of smallpox OTL? So if had smallpox as a child, wouldn't he have an immunity or at least a resistance to the disease later in life?
 
You, your sister, and everyone you knew didn't have measles. You all had rubella and there's a very great difference. Everyone who doesn't know better calls rubella measles, just as everyone tends to call a cold the flu.
Rubella is 'German measles': Here in the UK, during my own childhood (1960s), we certainly distinguished between those two diseases... and I think that we still do.

In the early 1500s, measles killed over half of the natives of Cuba and Honduras. Measles killed the Incan emperor, his heir, and a sizable portion of the empire's population sparking a civil war which Pizarro exploited to great effect. In the 1800s, measles killed a quarter of the population of Hawaii and a third of the population of Fiji. As late as the 1920s and 30s, measles would kill up to a third of those infected.
As far as the native Americans and Pacific Islanders are concerned, lack of previous exposure meant no previous selection for resistance to that disease (or to various other 'Old World' diseases that also took a toll, either)... and "successful" diseases tend to weaken over time, because the strains that leave their hosts alive for longer can spread further and are therefore themselves favoured by natural selection, anyway: Consider for example the case of Scarlet Fever, which had quite a high lethality rate as recently as my mother's childhood but is now (under the name of 'Scarlatina') a relatively mild problem...
 

Flubber

Banned
Rubella is 'German measles'...


Or three day measles.

Here in the UK, during my own childhood (1960s), we certainly distinguished between those two diseases... and I think that we still do.

Isn't that nice.

As far as the native Americans and Pacific Islanders are concerned, lack of previous exposure meant no previous selection for resistance to that disease (or to various other 'Old World' diseases that also took a toll, either)...

I never knew that.

... and "successful" diseases tend to weaken over time, because the strains that leave their hosts alive for longer can spread further and are therefore themselves favoured by natural selection...

Ain't evolution wonderful? The same thing happened with syphilis.

Consider for example the case of Scarlet Fever, which had quite a high lethality rate as recently as my mother's childhood but is now (under the name of 'Scarlatina') a relatively mild problem...

Except for the later heart issues sadly.

Measles still kills in the low single percentages, down from a death rate of nearly a third 80 years ago, and mostly because measles "kills" mostly through follow-on complications which can be more easily treated today.
 
You, your sister, and everyone you knew didn't have measles. You all had rubella and there's a very great difference. Everyone who doesn't know better calls rubella measles, just as everyone tends to call a cold the flu.

Measles kills, sometimes directly but more usually via follow-on complications like pneumonia, encephalitis, and diarrhea. That's why it's tracked by the WHO and national health organizations.

In the early 1500s, measles killed over half of the natives of Cuba and Honduras. Measles killed the Incan emperor, his heir, and a sizable portion of the empire's population sparking a civil war which Pizarro exploited to great effect. In the 1800s, measles killed a quarter of the population of Hawaii and a third of the population of Fiji. As late as the 1920s and 30s, measles would kill up to a third of those infected.

Be thankful you didn't have measles.


No. Not so. We (our parents and grandparents, anyway) were perfectly well aware of the distinction. I had the English, or true measles, as did she. She, also, separately, had German measles. I either didn't catch it, despite being under strict instructions to do so (Gran was very annoyed) , or I had so mild a case no one was quite sure if I did or not. German measles was a poor apology for an illness, hardly even justifying a few days off school.

What I had was quite definitely English measles.Our parents and grandparents weren't fools they knew very well indeed what the various childhood diseases were. No-one ever died of them.

Now, polio, diptheria (putrid throat), scarlet fever, they were much more serious, and feared. Especially polio. The children at school dragging around with legs in calipers were a constant reminder of the ones that didn't make it. Polio was terrible, and feared. Not so measles. German measles even less so

(I also got chickenpox, as did my sister. She also got mumps, and passed it on to my mother - which was not intended- but I did not. Gran put that down to sheer perversity)
 
Or three day


Measles still kills in the low single percentages, down from a death rate of nearly a third 80 years ago, and mostly because measles "kills" mostly through follow-on complications which can be more easily treated today.


Either the death rate dropped astonishingly from 30% to bugger all in 5 years, or that rate was measured in an astonishingly sickly community, or it's humbug.

There were 40 odd children in my class at school when I caught English measles. All bar three of them caught it (and at least two of the three had had it before. Accepted wisdom was that English measles you could only get once, German measles you could get over and over - typical nasty foreign trick we thought. I don't know if that's true or not). No-one died. In my class or the school. We DID have school mates die of polio, it was very very sad, and I think one of putrid throat.
 

Flubber

Banned
Either the death rate dropped astonishingly from 30% to bugger all in 5 years, or that rate was measured in an astonishingly sickly community, or it's humbug.


Pneumonia brought on by measles had a fatality rate of 30% in the 1920s. The study was done in London at Grove Fever Hospital by Dr. Ellison.

When you got measles, in the 1940/50s it seems seeing as polio was a problem, various antibiotics were available. Because measles "kills" through follow-on complications, managing those complications drops the fatality rate.

In the late 20th Century in advanced nations, the fatality rate for measles was well under 1%. At the same time in 3rd nations, the fatality rate was ~25%, again due to management of the complications.
 
Unfortunately, antibiotics hadn't been discovered when I was a boy. Though I'm not clear what antibiotics have to do with measles.Measles is a virus, antibiotics have no effect on viruses.
 

Flubber

Banned
Though I'm not clear what antibiotics have to do with measles.Measles is a virus, antibiotics have no effect on viruses.


Antibiotics help manage the various follow-on complications I previously mentioned. As I've also mentioned, measles "kills" through those follow-on complications.

If you contracted measles in the 1930s, you might have received sulfa drugs.
 
Well, as antibiotics weren't available back then (we never heard of them until well after the war), it's a good thing none of us got these "complications". I'm pretty sure Gran would not have approved of children getting "complications".

My wife's cousins grandfather did die of pneumonia in 1935, but that was nothing to do with measles, though antibiotics could maybe have saved him.

We never got any drugs. Just that perpetual damned cod liver oil, and barley water for fever. (and opening medicine, which was unspeakably vile, if you weren't regular. Fortunately, I was)
 

Flubber

Banned
Well, as antibiotics weren't available back then (we never heard of them until well after the war)...


Antibiotics is a postwar term, so you wouldn't have heard it before the war. Sulfa, on the other hand, was available and widely used before the war.

... it's a good thing none of us got these "complications".

It is a good thing because it lessened your chances on dying.

I'm pretty sure Gran would not have approved of children getting "complications".

While no one enjoys burying children or watching them suffer through a major illness, your Gran's lack of approval regarding complications had zip point shit to do with whether you developed them or not.

My wife's cousins grandfather did die of pneumonia in 1935, but that was nothing to do with measles...

Measles aren't the only way you can develop pneumonia.

... though antibiotics could maybe have saved him.

That's a good bet.

We never got any drugs.

But, unlike most of the 3rd World where measles still kills through complications, you still got fed regularly, stayed reasonably warm, and weren't loaded with parasites and other endemic illnesses.

Just that perpetual damned cod liver oil, and barley water for fever. (and opening medicine, which was unspeakably vile, if you weren't regular. Fortunately, I was)

A hard childhood, but you weren't in the Congo, Andes, or Celebes either.
 
Antibiotics is a postwar term, so you wouldn't have heard it before the war. Sulfa, on the other hand, was available and widely used before the war.



It is a good thing because it lessened your chances on dying.



While no one enjoys burying children or watching them suffer through a major illness, your Gran's lack of approval regarding complications had zip point shit to do with whether you developed them or not.

You never knew Gran!

Reality is, though, no-one did.You got English measles, you were put to bed in a darkened room, you were dosed with cod liver oil and barley water, any neighbourhood children that hadn't had measles were sent to sit with you so they could catch it, and after a week of frantic itching - we did have calamine lotion for that, worked quite well - you went back to school. Never any complications

Measles aren't the only way you can develop pneumonia.



That's a good bet.



But, unlike most of the 3rd World where measles still kills through complications, you still got fed regularly, stayed reasonably warm, and weren't loaded with parasites and other endemic illnesses.



A hard childhood, but you weren't in the Congo, Andes, or Celebes either.

To be sure. As I said, sickly communities, different story maybe. (We certainly didn't have any parasites -Gran was hot on worms, that was even worse than opening medicine.) But, I certainly didn't have a hard childhood. We were wonderfully fortunate, it's the poor little buggers growing up today that have it hard. Being a child today must be the pits.
 
Offtopic from medical and cultural POV:
That's a great difference between Russian and anglophone mentality. Had I seen a guy openly admitting he's 80+ years old on Russian AH board, I'd immediately made "age equals competence" correlation and treated him with all respect due to seniors (maybe he's semi-retired university teacher, getting online as the way of supervise his student's progress and proposing unorthodox teaching methods despite his advanced age). And acted sheepishly around him in general. Or maybe it's just me...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measles#Treatment
And as of treatment:
There is no specific treatment for measles. Most patients with uncomplicated measles will recover with rest and supportive treatment. It is, however, important to seek medical advice if the patient becomes more unwell, as they may be developing complications.
Cod liver oil is traditional remedy for uncomplicated form as it's high on vitamin A.
 
Reality is, though, no-one did.You got English measles, you were put to bed in a darkened room, you were dosed with cod liver oil and barley water, any neighbourhood children that hadn't had measles were sent to sit with you so they could catch it, and after a week of frantic itching - we did have calamine lotion for that, worked quite well - you went back to school. Never any complications
Strange. Especially with purposeful contagious part, this one really sounds like varicella.
 

Flubber

Banned
And as of treatment...

Exactly.

There is no specific treatment for measles. Most patients with uncomplicated measles will recover with rest and supportive treatment. It is, however, important to seek medical advice if the patient becomes more unwell, as they may be developing complications.

(emphasis mine)
 
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