Breechloading Rifles - Technical Question

Considering a metallic cartridge resolves the gas seal issues...isn't that the main thing that is needed for a practical breech loader?
 
Considering a metallic cartridge resolves the gas seal issues...isn't that the main thing that is needed for a practical breech loader?


Step back, take a deep breath, and think for a moment...

... just what does a metallic cartridge fit into?

The trick isn't to manufacture metallic cartridges. The trick isn't to manufacture breech loading guns. The trick is to repeatedly manufacture metallic cartridges of known dimensions with fixed tolerances which can then fit into a repeatedly manufactured breech of known dimensions with fixed tolerances.

That's the difference here. Breechloaders have been around ever since firearms were first developed, while large quantities of useful breechloaders had to wait for several technical advances.
 
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It's also a materials and metallurgy problem. Even for 15-20 years after the metallic cartridge was invented they had an ongoing problem with the various ejectors ripping the tail end of the cartridge off and leaving the front end jammed into the chamber.
 
The reason is a lack of machine tools and precise measurement technology.

As you yourself have already noted, gas sealing is critical for breechloading guns and that seal cannot be achieved without improvements to manufacturing tolerances. Until machine tools and precise measurements become more common, the ability to manufacture large numbers of working breechloading guns is extremely difficult.

IIRC, usertron happens to be a CNC machinist. Hopefully he'll chime in with a more detailed explanation.

I think you're thinking of MacCauley--I know he's a machinist. But he doesn't visit the pre-1900 boards very much, so he probably won't show up here.
 

Art

Monthly Donor
that and the IDEA of interchangeable parts isn't there yet. That's what's needed for the firearms revolution of the 1830s-1840s to happen.
 
that and the IDEA of interchangeable parts isn't there yet. That's what's needed for the firearms revolution of the 1830s-1840s to happen.


well, the idea had been around since the late 18th century, in fact Eli Whitney demonstrated the ability to assemble a bunch of muskets from a bag of jumbled up parts which impressed them very well. He did this in 1798, however the process of manufacturing those parts was very difficult and expensive, which is something he struggled with for some time. However if you can figure out a way to have someone (preferrably Whitney himself) figure out the American system shortly after that and you've got yourself a hell of a lot closer to developing a practical breech loading rifle well ahead of OTL. Since now you have a workable manufacturing system married to interchangeable parts, all somebody has to say is "hey I bet I could make a lot of money by making a breech loading rifle a hell of a lot cheaper than anybody else in the business." And there you have it.
 

archaeogeek

Banned
The Kammerlader was one of the best early breeckloaders with a good gas seal.

This person has created a breech loading flintlock pistol using a similar mechanism. He reckons it could be built by a 18th century gunsmith.

The second one is interesting: it was always understood that cavalry costs a lot more than infantry to outfit and while there might be a cost issue behind the move to flintlock pistols, pistols in general always cost more than muskets. I'm not sure it would have led to much changes, apart from maybe allowing cavalry to carry lighter firearms; I doubt cavalry would have been very keen on reloading in the middle of combat though.

From a civilian point of view this would have been a different matter I guess.
 
Step back, take a deep breath, and think for a moment...

... just what does a metallic cartridge fit into?

The trick isn't to manufacture metallic cartridges. The trick isn't to manufacture breech loading guns. The trick is to repeatedly manufacture metallic cartridges of known dimensions with fixed tolerances which can then fit into a repeatedly manufactured breech of known dimensions with fixed tolerances.

That's the difference here. Breechloaders have been around ever since firearms were first developed, while large quantities of useful breechloaders had to wait for several technical advances.

....I'm not sure I like how you wrote this...

Considering that metallic cartridge expand to create the seal, similar to how a Minnie ball works for muzzle loading rifles, tight tolerances wouldn't be needed quite as much is my thought.
As for if they're enough to have a practical breach loader that surpass muzzleloading rifles is what I asked.
 
Considering that metallic cartridge expand to create the seal...


Let's step back, take a deep breath, and think again, okay?

The metallic cartridge expands to help create the seal. Tell us, how much does it expand? Tenths of an inch or thousandths of an inch?

And which to you think expands further? The metallic cartridge or the Minie ball?

We've a cartridge which expands a few thousandths of an inch to form the gas seal against the breech. That means both the cartridge and the breech need to be repeatedly manufactured to known dimensions with fixed tolerances. Too small a cartridge or too big a breech and the seal doesn't form. Too big a cartridge or too small a breech and the cartridge can't be loaded.

Manufacturing capabilities are the key in this question.
 
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When I learned of the Norwegian ''Kamerlader'' and the home build breach loader of ''This Person'' I wondered why this was not invented by some 18th century gunsmith. The system looks more simpler than the Fergison rifle.
Manufacturing cost was of course an important factor, how ever the european cavalary was equiped with expesive and dificult to amufacture wind pistols from late 16th century on.
The existence of this rahter compicated rifles under mine the opinion of earlier post who think that an uniform way of manufacturing is first nessesary before breach load rifles are possible. Breach load rifles are possible ( the firrst guns were breach loaders). The most important things you need are, a relative easy to manufacure weapon ( kammerladder thing) easy to operate and , most important, an monarch who is mad enough to use them.
As an example could be the popularity of all sort of ordnance in the 15th and 16th century. The military relevance of all those cannon of that eara ( some had even names) was questionable. The Kings of that time how ever were madly inlove of them.

An other thing I wonder is that of the 19th century invention of the Minie ball.
Rifled guns were in use, almost since the invention of the first guns and matchlock muskets.
Not in combat but more as hunting weapon. In occasions we now call a hobby.
There must be some aristocratic hunter, in the 17th or 18th century, beiing fed up with ramming the gun powder and especially the too thigh ball in to the barrel. A guy like this , could invent a lose fit, easy to load, Minie ball, which expands after ingnition of the powder?
 
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Let's step back, take a deep breath, and think again, okay?

The metallic cartridge expands to help create the seal. Tell us, how much does it expand? Tenths of an inch or thousandths of an inch?

And which to you think expands further? The metallic cartridge or the Minie ball?

We've a cartridge which expands a few thousandths of an inch to form the gas seal against the breech. That means both the cartridge and the breech need to be repeatedly manufactured to known dimensions with fixed tolerances. Too small a cartridge or too big a breech and the seal doesn't form. Too big a cartridge or too small a breech and the cartridge can't be loaded.

Manufacturing capabilities are the key in this question.

What heck is with the "step back and take a breath?" Whether you mean it or not, you're coming off very patronizing and it is annoying.

I'm not trying making any claims. Just an inquiry with the idea that a metallic cartridge could act like a reverse Minie ball.
 
What heck is with the "step back and take a breath?"


What I'm saying is that you "already" know the answer to your question. You just need to trust your own abilities and judgment.

You're not a dope and you don't need to be a gunsmith to figure this out. You can google up the same schematics as everyone else. You can google up the same descriptions as everyone else. You can figure out how a gas seal works, you can determine just how important the tolerances in question are, and you can answer your question yourself because you already have both the abilities and judgment to develop the answer for yourself.

All you need to do is examine the problem and tackle it logically, something which you know that you can do.

So, just step back, take a breath, and think about the question. You soon realize you've known the answer all along!
 
well, the idea had been around since the late 18th century, in fact Eli Whitney demonstrated the ability to assemble a bunch of muskets from a bag of jumbled up parts which impressed them very well. He did this in 1798, however the process of manufacturing those parts was very difficult and expensive, which is something he struggled with for some time. However if you can figure out a way to have someone (preferrably Whitney himself) figure out the American system shortly after that and you've got yourself a hell of a lot closer to developing a practical breech loading rifle well ahead of OTL. Since now you have a workable manufacturing system married to interchangeable parts, all somebody has to say is "hey I bet I could make a lot of money by making a breech loading rifle a hell of a lot cheaper than anybody else in the business." And there you have it.

Gracias, I intend to use this in my TL
 
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