Breakout thread #2 for: Best aircraft for USN Carriers.

Would requiring by law USN Carriers to have a much larger number of planes be a good thing?


  • Total voters
    7
This thread is a breakout thread for @tomo pauk thread HERE.

Like the other breakout thread, this thread is more about finding ways to make the carriers air groups better, by public policy, by requiring far more aircraft being built per USN Carrier, so having a healthier US aircraft industry, more planes/pilots/aircrew.

So here goes...

The Carrier Air Group standardization act of Jan 1st, 1937.
The US Congress today enacted legislation requiring the following conditions must be applied to the CAG of all operational USN carriers.

1. For every operational carrier in the USN, a standardized CAG is authorized, and required, to be formed up in time to begin operations when the carrier comes into commission.

2. Such a CAG will consist of current, proven aircraft types, in three complete Carrier Air Wings, as well as at least one additional partial wing of experimental aircraft of more advanced design.

3. Each individual CAW will have, separately, more aircraft and aircrew than the specific carrier can embark at any given time, such that:

4. If a particular aircraft carrier could embark 72 aircraft as it’s normal complement, and say these aircraft types were broken down into 24 of each of our current types of, fighters, dive bombers, and torpedo bombers, then at minimum such a CAW would need 24 aircraft of each type, each with its own aircrew just to be able to sail with a balanced force. As different missions may dictate a different mix, with more or less emphasis on a given type, extra aircraft need to be assigned to a CAW, so that such varying mixtures of types can be accomplished without the need to go outside the CAG, so that all aircrew will have carried out joint missions, and be known to each other from having extensive training together, thus keeping up the level of expertise of the CAG and CAW as a whole, instead of needing to bring in a new cadet, fresh from flight training, and teach them everything that flight school didn’t.

5. In order that our carriers have the needed extra pilots and planes, the normal complement of each CAW should consist of 250% of the individual aircraft types, such that in the above example, a single CAW would require 60 of each type, for a total of 180 aircraft. This is done to ensure that differing mixtures are readily available for whatever mission type is undergoing, and that despite any maintenance issues that may arise, there will always be enough aircraft to fill out the shipboard embarkation slots.

6. Further, because of the nature of military aviation in general, and carrier aviation in particular, each USN aircraft carrier is required by law to have three complete CAW in time of war, or lead up to war, such that losses can be instantly be made good by the simple expedient of swapping out a depleted CAW for a fresh one, thus ensuring a full complement of fully trained and experienced aircrew that have trained extensively, together, is always available for our carriers, and additionally, that the legal requirement to have three separate, full and oversized CAW will ensure that our brave pilots can expect to rotate between operation sorties with the carrier, R&R, and training up of replacement pilots to make up losses due to combat, mishaps, and retirement.

7. This legal requirement therefore make a notional carrier, with an embarked CAW of some 72 aircraft, need 540 total aircraft in times of war, and this does not count the ancillary aircraft types nor the advanced/experimental CAW mentioned in #2 above.

Ok, so this is kind of bordering on a wank, but looking at this as a measure to overcome the imponderables of an as yet future war, and all the uncertainties that this will have for a civilian Politician, attempting to create a force structure that will err on the side of caution and prepare the USN to be able to meet and overcome any difficulties that might arise, years down the road…

Again, any thoughts relating to this idea, post here, and for actual aircraft suggestions, please post them in TP's thread.
 
act of Jan 1st, 1937
By this date 2LNT has removed limits on numbers of CV if congress are willing to pass this they will be willing to fund more than OTL number of carriers.....why have CAW of 250% when you can just split that on three (or really two) hulls?
 
By this date 2LNT has removed limits on numbers of CV if congress are willing to pass this they will be willing to fund more than OTL number of carriers.....why have CAW of 250% when you can just split that on three (or really two) hulls?
Good question, and thanks for asking. The short answer is, I don't really have a good answer to that question, as this thread was to serve as an external place to post an idea, so as not to clutter up the original thread. Given that we didn't even get authorised to start the USS Hornet until after the shooting had started in Europe, Sep 1939, I don't see us getting more carriers sooner than that, which is why, barred more carriers themselves, I go with getting more planes/pilots/aircrew, by forcing such acquisitions by law, because we already have existing carriers, and to bring them up to speed, too comply with the law just passed, means immediate orders for the extra planes, in 1937 and congress has to fund that purchase, so by the time the US aircraft industry starts to gear up and up production, the USS Hornet and USS Essex are probably already in the works, and folks no longer doubt that there is going to be a war, and we are going to need to be ready for that war...

Anyway, I just like the idea that if we had done this, and not really told the public the actual scale of this legislation, then maybe, just maybe, the USN can have the aircraft they need, just in time for the war to start. Keep in mind, the idea is also to have a CAG which is {CAW X 3 + experimental/advanced}, and not counting utility/ancillary aircraft. So technically, we would be looking at 750% for the three operational CAW's, plus the experimental/advanced CAW. In terms of setting us up for being able to produce more aircraft, and having more pilots already trained and ready to train others, this legislation goes along way towards getting the USA, if not exactly on a war footing, at least allowing us to be caught quite a bit less wrong footed at the start of things.
 
One thing I kinda touched upon in the OP, in a very slight way, was that the USN would more often than not have changed up their embarked airgroups from one voyage to another, and I couldn't count on carrier X having this many of that type of aircraft, and realised that that was both always going to be the case, and even had to admit that it made since.

For instance, on a mission to attack an enemy island with either seaplanes and/or land based air, taking torpedo bombers along for the ride might not be desired, so if you wanted to go all fighter/dive bomber mix on that particular mission, you would be in a position to be able to do that, without having to transfer folks in and out all the time.
 
and not really told the public the actual scale of this legislation
How do you keep legislation secret? Especially defence related stuff with the environment of the late 30s and neutrality legislation and wanting to avoid wars etc.....
then maybe, just maybe, the USN can have the aircraft they need, just in time for the war to start.
No IMO FDR will simply sell the planes quickly in 39 to GB/Fr but it will have boosted the US defence industry overall.

I think the best way to do this is to simply add some sub clause into the New Deal legislation to allow the President to spend money on a long list of things.....including somewhere near the bottom "replenishing navel stores" and then just have USN/FDR decide that clearly that includes aircraft for carriers.
 
Last edited:
One thing I kinda touched upon in the OP, in a very slight way, was that the USN would more often than not have changed up their embarked airgroups from one voyage to another, and I couldn't count on carrier X having this many of that type of aircraft, and realised that that was both always going to be the case, and even had to admit that it made since.

For instance, on a mission to attack an enemy island with either seaplanes and/or land based air, taking torpedo bombers along for the ride might not be desired, so if you wanted to go all fighter/dive bomber mix on that particular mission, you would be in a position to be able to do that, without having to transfer folks in and out all the time.

The Torpedo bomber of the day had a Norden sight! ;)

THe bomb aim lay in a 'coffin' shaped position below the Pilot seat looking through a window that was uncovered by 2 doors (Note where the rear of the Torpedo recesses into the hull) - so arguably it would have had a place when attacking an enemy island

tbd.11689.aimdoors.open.jpg
 
I think the best way to do this is to simply add some sub clause into the New Deal legislation to allow the President to spend money on a long list of things.....including somewhere near the bottom "replenishing navel stores" and then just have USN/FDR decide that clearly that includes aircraft for carriers.
1930s-us-navy-flight-deck-cruiser-hybrid-carrier.jpg

Just have more deck that require aircraft.

Get the 1931 Flight Deck Cruisers built. Half Carrier, Half 6" Cruiser

If nothing else, would be faster aircraft transports, like Escort Carriers were later used for
726px-USS_Thetis_Bay_CVE-90_1944NAN4-75.jpg
 
These were to be around 12,000 tons.
Drop the tonnage a bit ,or just lie and say they are 10,000 tons, and there are no other Treaty limits on how many the Navy could have, so stock up.

The Navy needed a lot more cruisers, and this makes them a lot more 'sexy', and multi-role
 
Flight Deck Cruisers built. Half Carrier, Half 6" Cruiser

If nothing else, would be faster aircraft transports, like Escort Carriers were later used for
The Navy needed a lot more cruisers, and this makes them a lot more 'sexy', and multi-role
And come 42/43 they will convert easily and quickly into reasonable CVLs once they realize just what a bad idea they are as hybrids.
 
Top