Brazilian Papal States

[Niko Malaka]

The Carlists were not as weak as you imply, and with overt sponsorship by the Pope and strong support from France, they can grow much stronger.

No. Actually in the 1870's they were weaker. Regarding their endurance dring the Third Carlist War you could think otherwise, but it obviates other considerations. To beggin with, the command structure of the EON (Ejército Operativo del Norte or Northern Operative Army) wasted more time plotting conspirations than thinking about the war, at the point that they even abbandoned the war theatre to support a coup against the First Republic. In the same ilk, many Isabelino monarchists "joined" the Carlists when the republic was procalimed. Put the Carliss candidate in the throne and you have exactly the oppostie situation, with those Isabelinos cooperating with the republicans and the resto fo liberals because "the enemy of my enemy..." Even the military-political leader of Carlism renounced to his functions in 1872 because he didn't consider it the best time for the uprising,. We are talking about the worst moment of inestability in 19th century Spain, and apparenly it was not the best time for an uprising for some sectors of Carlism, so go figure. Beyond Navarre-Vascongadas and some villages in northern Catalonia and northern Castile, they have not solid support in the rest of Spain. Their guerrillas were reduced to mountain bandits in the numerous spanish sierras as far as possible from the inhabited centers because most people didn't want to have nothing to do with them. Spain was not Carlist in 1833 and she was even less Carlist in 1872, when several sociological, political and economical changes had happened.

You can't overlook the importance that the lack of legitimacy of the crown has in spanish history and spanish legalist tradition. 1520-21, 1701-13, 1808-1812...are some good examples.

Yeah, it came about as part of a hilarious bit of forgetfulness; Andorra would have been part of Ariège, in theory, but when deputies came the deputies of Andorra were turned around by whoever was receiving them because they somehow thought it was either part of spanish Catalonia or already covered by the county of Foix.
Or had no idea what the hell an Andorra was for all we know

I dind't know this part of andorran history, thanks. Well, who can blame them. Before the skiing and the duty free tobacco, alcohol and other stuff Andorra was really useless

 

[RyuDrago]

Italy whitout papacy, what a dream

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[Eurofed]

When we're talking about Andorra are we saying that he gets a small part of it or that he takes over the whole of the principality? The latter shouldn't be too hard I would think if you allow for an early enough point of departure. And whilst Avignon might have the history and prestige behind it, a palace and the surrounding neighbourhood versus a country of 180 odd square miles I think Andorra wins. Hell you can build yourself a new Papal palace.

You know, this is the first really convincing argument I read in this thread about the superiority of Andorra to Avignon in this thread. I concede the point.

Apparently the French revolutionary government renounced their status as one of the co-rulers only for it to be restored by Napoleon 15 or so years later at the Andorrans petition. Simply have him either not hear or not respond to the request making the Bishop of Urgel the sole Prince, and then after the wars it falls through the cracks so the French monarch doesn't regain their status of co-Prince. When the Pope gets run out of town you've got a state already run by one of your bishops just waiting for you, either to cede a large plot of land for a new Papal States or through some shenanigans try and combine the positions of Pope and Prince of Andorra and take over the whole lot as absolute monarch.

Frankly, I see no real political obstacle to a Catholic-conservative Third Republic, or even more, a reactionary-protofascist Bourbon France, to cede its overlordship rights to an exiled Pope with a stroke of pen, Andorra was no French national territory but a feudal overlordship. So yes, Pius IX would have little trouble becoming prince of Andorra in this scenario. At most, France would make the cession reversible if the Pope ever relocates elsewhere.