Braxton Bragg Fragged

This may seem ASB, but what about Cleburne? I don't know if he could get top command bing Irish, but he and Forrest were the two best commanders in the west by far. At least give Cleburne a corps, I believe he would fight with it better than most.

And didn't Breckinridge turn out to be a decent division commander? He had a good record in The Shenandoah, albeit against weak opposing commanders.

Cleburne early on showed little of his later promise, and is far too junior in 1862 - Forrest is similar.

And this is sidestepping whether or not Forrest's record is really a sign he could handle an (infantry) corps.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Cleburne and Forrest were junior, definitely;

This may seem ASB, but what about Cleburne? I don't know if he could get top command bing Irish, but he and Forrest were the two best commanders in the west by far. At least give Cleburne a corps, I believe he would fight with it better than most.

And didn't Breckinridge turn out to be a decent division commander? He had a good record in The Shenandoah, albeit against weak opposing commanders.

FWIW, the Army of the Mississippi's organization at Shiloh was:

CG: Gen. AS Johnston
2iC: Gen. PGT Beauregard

I Corps - MG Polk; 1st Div (2 bdes) - BG Clark; 2nd Div (2 bdes) - MG Cheatham
II Corps - MG Bragg; 1st Div (3 bdes) - BG Ruggles; 2nd Div (3 bdes) - BG Withers
III Corps - MG Hardee; (3 bdes; no divisional organization)
Reserve Corps - BG Breckinridge (3 bdes, no divisional organization)

So, if Bragg is out of the picture, presumably Beauregard gets the II Corps. The overall organization is pretty weak, however; in terms of present for duty, the II Corps had ~16,300 men, but the I Corps only had 9,400, the III Corps had 6,800, and the Reserve Corps had 7,200...army level troops included a single separate infantry regiment of 700 and a cavalry force of 4,300.

A rational organization would have split the 40,000 infantry and artillery into four divisions of 10,000 each (four brigades to the division) and assigned them to (presumably) the four senior major generals: Beauregard, Bragg, Hardee, and Polk. If it were possible, maybe send Polk to the Gulf and give the fourth division to Cheatham.

If Bragg is not around for whatever reason, Polk stays and Cheatham gets the fourth division.

Best,
 
YAQW ... the thing that would tilt sending PGT Beauregard "west" (south, actually, but you get what I mean) in 1862, rather than JE Johnston, is that Beauregard was, by definition, a "Westerner" (just as Johnston was not, being a Virginian).

In what amounted to a less-than-unified confederacy (lower case "c"), regional issues were very real, after all.

Which is why, I think, Davis kept Johnston and sent Beauregard "west" in reality. Same reason that AS Johnston (a Kentuckian) got the assignment he did, I think.

Best,

No, Beauregard was sent West not because he was a Westerner but because a political liability in Virginia. He quarrelled publically with the commisary general and the secretary of war and in a newpaper reporting his version of what happened at 1st Manassas he implied that the only reason the Federal Army hadn't been destroyed was because Davis had interfered and prevented him from fully realizing his own plan.

Johnston might not like Davis and he might have complained in private company about the secretary of war while also quarrelling with other Richmond Authorities but these were done in private or in official military channels, Beauregard's complaints were aired in full view of the public.

That said, there's no doubt going West was what Beauregard and staying in Virginia was what Joe Johnston wanted, but its not as if the decision was made based only or mainly of their state of origin.
 
I had a thought that without Bragg at Shiloh, that could butterfly away the death of A.S. Johnston. How do things progress in the West with A.S. Johnston still in command? I am not sure how long he would remain in command. He was highly regarded in the pre-war U.S. Army, but his record in the war was not impressive.

You might just manage it. There is an argument that the Hornets Nest where Sidney Johnston was mortally wounded developed because Bragg conducting only piecemeal frontal attacks for hours instead of a concentrated attack. Had Bragg pressed that region with more concentrated power Sidney Johnston might not have been shot leading an attack on the left flank of the that position, so had Bragg been dead and another man be in command of that Corps the battle may have developed differently and Sidney might have survived.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Okay, but being a Westerner and being a political liability "might" be two sides

No, Beauregard was sent West not because he was a Westerner but because a political liability in Virginia. He quarrelled publically with the commisary general and the secretary of war and in a newpaper reporting his version of what happened at 1st Manassas he implied that the only reason the Federal Army hadn't been destroyed was because Davis had interfered and prevented him from fully realizing his own plan ... That said, there's no doubt going West was what Beauregard and staying in Virginia was what Joe Johnston wanted, but its not as if the decision was made based only or mainly of their state of origin.

Okay, but being a Westerner and being a political liability "might" be two sides of the same coin; Beauregard was about as much NOT a typical "southron" as was possible in 1861...I think only Benjamin could have been any more of an "other" to Davis et al.

Best,
 
On the whole, Bragg being the second most successful army commander in the Confederacy is pretty telling of the alternatives to him.

Lee losing Longstreet hurts the ANV more than it helps the AoT. Joe Johnston isn't available to replace the other Johnston (assuming his injuries aren't butterflied), Beauregard's offense plans were off in fantasy land . . . so that leaves Polk ::shudder: and Hardee - iffy at best. The potential army command pool is very shallow.

Kirby Smith's another option. He was promoted to Lieutenant General on October 9th 1862 at the same time as Longstreet, making him and Longstreet equal as the two most senior generals of that rank in the south. The generals who would be next most senior were Polk, Theophilus Holmes, Hardee, Jackson and Pemberton, and who were promoted a day after later.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Sometimes I think Bragg gets a bad rap. Had he not been shackled with Polk as one of his two principal subordinates, he might have done just fine.
 
However, the big question is who gets Bragg's Corps at Shiloh and do they distinguish themselves enough to become a major player and upset the scenario?

Could be Henry Heth. He was offered command of the Trans-Mississippi department ahead of Bragg and Van Dorn so he's plausable.
 
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