Brandenburg takes part in Great Northern War instead of War of the Spanish Sucession

Susano

Banned
Even though nobody else seems to give a damn about about wars in the late 17th/early 18th century. But worth a try.

IOTL, Brandenburg kept a strict neutrality in the Great northern War that happened all around, but sent off up to 10,000 men to far away battlefields in the War of the Spanish Succession. This is not as crazy as it sounds: The neutrality in the Great Northern War spared Brandenburg a great deal of devastation (if go by what Saxony and Poland had to suffer as comparision), and the support towards Habsburg in the Spanish Succession got Brandenburg the imperial acceptance of raising Prrussia to Kingdom - which was the most crucible thing in that project.

However, lets assume Prince-Elector Frederick IV (IOTL King Frederick I.) doesnt give a damn about the royal crown. That might necessitate changing his entire personality, but why not. Lets assume he thus does not entangle himself with House Habsburg, and as consequence doesnt care about the War of the Spanish Succession. Instead, he throws in his weight into the Great Northern War, on either (or maybe even changing) sides....

Thoughts?
 
Even though nobody else seems to give a damn about about wars in the late 17th/early 18th century. But worth a try.

IOTL, Brandenburg kept a strict neutrality in the Great northern War that happened all around, but sent off up to 10,000 men to far away battlefields in the War of the Spanish Succession. This is not as crazy as it sounds: The neutrality in the Great Northern War spared Brandenburg a great deal of devastation (if go by what Saxony and Poland had to suffer as comparision), and the support towards Habsburg in the Spanish Succession got Brandenburg the imperial acceptance of raising Prrussia to Kingdom - which was the most crucible thing in that project.

However, lets assume Prince-Elector Frederick IV (IOTL King Frederick I.) doesnt give a damn about the royal crown. That might necessitate changing his entire personality, but why not. Lets assume he thus does not entangle himself with House Habsburg, and as consequence doesnt care about the War of the Spanish Succession. Instead, he throws in his weight into the Great Northern War, on either (or maybe even changing) sides....

Thoughts?


Well maybe he joins Sweden at first thus having August of Poland to use troops to guard Poland. War goes as OTL until 1702-03 when Charles XII dont need to wait for the spanish successionwars to keep people occupied while he marsches in to Saxony. Thus Charles and Sweden can march towards Moscow 3 years earlier, maybe with a Brandenburg corps of 10-15000 men. Tsar Peter is less ready in 1704 than 1707 for the swedes and the russian winter will not be bad until 1707. Maybe Sweden wins the war, gives Brandenburg a piece of Saxony and Brandenburg then becomes a big power
 
I'm thinking that that was an astute bit of typically Hohenzollern politics. The French and Spanish, Bavarians and English and Dutch wewre not going to come to Brandenburg and lay siege to its cities. The Swedes or Poles just might have. And there is no guarantee of backing a winner.
 
Prussia (by this point we can just refer to it that way) did take part in the Great Northern War. They intervened in 1714 or 1715 and landed themselves a slice of Swedish Pomerania which included Stettin.

If they took the Swedish side they'd show more interest in Royal Prussia than Saxony.
 
Prussia (by this point we can just refer to it that way) did take part in the Great Northern War. They intervened in 1714 or 1715 and landed themselves a slice of Swedish Pomerania which included Stettin.

If they took the Swedish side they'd show more interest in Royal Prussia than Saxony.

I'd agree that Danzig is probably going to tempt Brandengurg-Prussia far more than a bit of Saxony, especially since Danzig would not have the baggage of being a part of the HRE. Admittedly by the 1700's that does not count for as much as might have in the past given the Empire's weakness, but it is still a factor to consider.

Of course, if things go quite well for Brandenburg and Sweden there's no reason they can't get both.
 

Susano

Banned
I'm thinking that that was an astute bit of typically Hohenzollern politics. The French and Spanish, Bavarians and English and Dutch wewre not going to come to Brandenburg and lay siege to its cities. The Swedes or Poles just might have. And there is no guarantee of backing a winner.

Oh, as said, it was good foreign politics IOTL. But with the two wars happening near-simultanous, and Brandenburg in the middle between them, it comes as kinda a natural question if you think about the period, and Brandenburg in special.

And, btw, no, we cant refer to it as Prussia:
Prussia was raised to Kingdom when Habsburg promised to accept that to win Brandenburg over for the War of the Spanish Sucession. It then became the most senior territory. Brandenburg not particpating in the War of Spanish Sucession means Prussia wont get raised to kingdom, so its at best Brandenburg-Prussia, but thats too long for me...

Now, obviously, Brandenburg has two options in the war: Side with the Alliance, or side with Sweden. IOTL, they made soem agreements withS weden, and tried to support a guarantee of neutrality of Swedish Pommerania, and thats as far as they leaned into the war. More pro-swedish than pro-Alliance, but not enough to deduce anything. Brandenburg could indeed have joined both sides.

Indeed, it was invited at first by Denmark, Saxony and Russia to join their war against Sweden. A natural offer, as it was well known Brandenburf desired Swediish Pommerania (and had a very good claim to it, too). Brandenburg could have joined the coalition right frm the start. The question is now: Does the Brandenburger army make any difference? Prussia,Brandenburg and Pommerania would be more or less on Charles' path anyways, solittle would change in that. The question is if the Brandenburgers can turn the tide... and actually, that could go so much both ways we now have three possibilities. (It should be noted August of Poland and Saxony was in the end desperate enough to promise Royal Prussia to Brandenburg if only itwould intervene, so if Brandenburg plays it well enough it can gain from both sides).

OR Brandenburg could side with Sweden. Maybe Frederick is unsure in the beginning and waits, and then sees the incredible sucesses of teh Swedish Army in Poland, and decides for joining up in beating on it. Of course such a timing is incompatible with matteops scenario but I really cant see Brandenburg joining earlier, when everybody thought Sweden would lose. In which case Charles indeed probably still sets off to fight the Russians, with the predictable results, and Brandenburg is left alone - then again, it would only square off against a recently devasted Saxony, and it can do that. (It would probably would receive some Saxon territories, too)

Of course, Brandenburg can also flip sides, but that would require it to start on the coalitions side (really in the scenario of the directly above paragraph, why would the coalition powers eager for revenge and BRandenburg spoils accept a flip?). How that works out depends again on how well Brandenburg can pull it off... either great disaster or great victory.

So, lets say, four possibilities:
1) Brandenburg joins the coalition early, but it still loses nontheless. Brandenburg gets devasted, and may have to cede Eats Pommerania, but takes it back (maybe together with West Pomemrania) when Charles get lost in Russia - but in the end effetc it still makes a loss due to the devastation.
2) Brandenburg joins the coalition early, which causes it to win against Charles in Poland. Brandenburg gains Swedish Pommerania, and as said if it plays it well enoughand Charles remains a threat, maybe Royal Prussia a swell.
3) Brandenburg joins the coalition late, maybe in return for August promises of Royal Prussia. See above.
4) Brandenburg joins the coalition, but then backstabs them, and maybe back again, etc. It ulls it off sucessful, and gains various territories from both sides depending on the timing and other factors.
5) Brandenburg flip-flops, but fails horribly at that. See scenario 7.
6) Brandenburg joins Sweden, and stays at the Swedish side. Charle sget lost in Russia, Brandneburg stays behind - but as everybody is warweary, nothing happens.
7) Brandenburg joins Sweden, and stays at the Swedish side. Charles get lost in Russia, Brandneburg stays behind. Russia for some reason is vengeful enough to come knocking, together with Saxony and Denmark. The Hohenzollern domains are torn apart.
 
Top