Branches of the Valois

[Janprimus]

OTL a marriage between Maximilian of Austria and Mary of Burgundy had been negotiated a some points, when Charles the Bold was still alive too. Even an ATL marriage of Mary of Burgundy with Nicholas of Lorraine is far from certain, since Charles tended to use his presumptive heiress as his most valuable negotiation chip. @Cornelis: IIRC Mary of Burgundy died from complications after falling from a horse during IIRC a hunt. IMHO it might happen or never happen, but not likely around the same time, especially since ITTL she's married to someone else, Nicholas.

More surviving Valois branches can have some rather complex implications.

 

[Cornelis]

OTL a marriage between Maximilian of Austria and Mary of Burgundy had been negotiated a some points, when Charles the Bold was still alive too. Even an ATL marriage of Mary of Burgundy with Nicholas of Lorraine is far from certain, since Charles tended to use his presumptive heiress as his most valuable negotiation chip. @Cornelis: IIRC Mary of Burgundy died from complications after falling from a horse during IIRC a hunt. IMHO it might happen or never happen, but not likely around the same time, especially since ITTL she's married to someone else, Nicholas.

More surviving Valois branches can have some rather complex implications.

Sure she was, but after the death of Nicholas of Lorraine. Also given a quasi-alliance with Lorraine, Charles could died way later, maybe with some sons from another marriage. As I said, I was not making a TL, just a sketch based upon existing dates for the main players, I am well aware of the butterfly effect. But the Anjou-Burgundy alliance has definitively some appeal.

 

[Cornelis]

Could make for fun times. Although HRE Maximilian is likely as not married to one of those same sisters (since he was OTL betrothed to Sophia of Poland before Marie of Burgundy became available). But Vlad's not King of Hungary just yet, Matyas Corvinus is still ruling there, and he has a bastard son (at least) who he would be very interested in marrying to a legitimate princess (1) for the prestige attached to such a match, and (2) to ensure that the bastard has some very threatening relatives to dissuade the Hungarian nobility from ranging against him as OTL. I think if not for certain reasons, Matyas might have even tried to hornswoggle HRE Friedrich III into letting him marry the Archduchess Margarethe to Janos Corvinus (were it not for German marriage laws)

Did not the Anjou still claimed Hungary as heirs to the first house of Anjou ? I am not sure, but they did incorporate the Hungarian arms in their owns. Maybe a grand reconciliation is possible, all depends on the number of available princesses.

 

[JonasResende]

Did not the Anjou still claimed Hungary as heirs to the first house of Anjou ? I am not sure, but they did incorporate the Hungarian arms in their owns. Maybe a grand reconciliation is possible, all depends on the number of available princesses.

I've never heard of them pushing their claim to the previous Angevin empire in Hungary et al, especially since that was a pretty specific situation IIRC. Karoly II of Hungary (Charles d'Anjou) was the eldest son of Charles Martel and Clemence of Austria. Charles Martel himself was the eldest son of Carlo II of Naples by his marriage to Maria of Hungary (Arpad). Now Maria was the second/third daughter of Istvan (Stephen) V, and her two older sisters Katalin, Queen Consort of Serbia, and Erzsébet, Queen Consort of Serbia, Baroness Falkenstein (although Erzsébet is also spoken of being "of the younger of six children"), both of whom had children - so IDK why they (Katalin and Erzsébet's children) were passed over.

But the "second" house of Anjou was never considered to have a claim to the Hungarian throne - although Erzsébet of Bosnia, widow of Lajos II, attempted for a time to get her one daughter married to a French Valois prince.

 

[JonasResende]

Sure she was, but after the death of Nicholas of Lorraine. Also given a quasi-alliance with Lorraine, Charles could died way later, maybe with some sons from another marriage. As I said, I was not making a TL, just a sketch based upon existing dates for the main players, I am well aware of the butterfly effect. But the Anjou-Burgundy alliance has definitively some appeal.

Well, King Louis did attempt to arrange a marriage between Marie (as heiress) and Duke Federigo of Naples in order to dissuade the marriage between Nicolas and Marie.

 

[Janprimus]

Valois-Anjou did claim the kingdom of Naples and thus did adopt the Neapolitan claims on the kingdom of Jerusalem and Hungary. Now the Valois-Anjou (and later Lorraine claim) didn't manage to realize their claim on Naples (they were successful in the Provence)let alone claims associated with said kingdom. They did add all 3 kingdoms to their coat of arms (based on their claims).

 

[JonasResende]

Out of curiosity, how might a son of Charles, duc de Guyenne, Normandie and de Berri fare in this shark tank? Or if he dies before Charles VIII but leaves only daughters - to be married around the late '80s/early '90s? (He left two batardes de Guyenne by Colette de Chambes, but their names seem to be rather unimaginative because like all other Valois French princesses of their generation they're named Jeanne and Anne, so might they get better names if they're born on the right side of the blanket?)

 

[JonasResende]

I'm curious, Charles le Téméraire had an older half-sister, daughter of his father by his first wife, Michelle, named Agnès, apparently. But I can't seem to find a date of birth for her, can anyone help please? And if Agnes (who OTL died at birth) were to survive, how and where might she marry? The dauphin? A Brabantian cousin? Elsewhere?

The Brabantian cousin brings me to my next question: Charles died with no sons, but his dad, Philippe le Bon, had two sets of male line cousins descended from Philippe le Bel, the dukes of Brabant and Limburg, and the count of Nevers and Rethel.

Philippe II, Duke of Burgundy m: Margaret of Flanders
Jean sans Peur, Duke of Burgundy m. Margaret of Holland

Philippe III le Bon, Duke of Burgundy 1m. Michelle de Valois; 3m. Isabel of Portugal

[1m.] Agnes (?)
[3m.] Charles le Téméraire, Duke of Burgundy m. Isabelle de Bourbon

Marie, Duchess of Burgundy m. Maximilian​

Antoine, Duke of Brabant and Limburg

Jean IV, Duke of Brabant and Limburg m. Jacqueline of Bavaria, Countess of Holland
Philippe, Duke of Brabant and Limburg

(illegitimate issue)​

Philippe, Count of Nevers and Rethel

Charles, Comte de Nevers & Rethel
Jean, Comte de Nevers & Rethel
​

From what I've read, Jean IV of Brabant was an idiot, he mortgaged his wife's lands to his cousin (her enemy), the duke of Burgundy, but at the time of his death, his brother Philippe was betrothed to a daughter of the duke of Anjou. So, say he marries Mlle d'Anjou, and has one or more of his illegitimate kids (he had five bastards: four sons, one daughter) born male. Obviously the young duke of Brabant will be prime real estate to marry Marie, duchess of Burgundy, but would this boy, call him Antoine II, duke of Brabant, be in line to inherit the territories claimed by the French king as being governed by Salic Law?

 

[JonasResende]

Me again, beating my Valois-cadet drum.

It would seem that 1430s was a pretty bad time for inter-branch marriages in the house of Valois, since a lot of the brides had the misfortune (or good fortune) to die before the wedding. But how's this for a scenario:

Philippe, duc de Brabant lives an extra decade, and marries Yolande d'Anjou (OTL duchess of Brittany). They have a couple of children, three boys and a girl. Yolande's OTL bridegroom marries Princess Bona of Savoy (as he was supposed to, but she died, so here she lives). As to the main branch of Burgundy, things proceed as OTL.

Jean sans Peur, Duke of Burgundy m. Margaret of Holland

Philippe III le Bon, Duke of Burgundy 1m. Michelle de Valois; 3m. Isabel of Portugal

[1m.] Agnes (?)
[3m.] Charles le Téméraire, Duke of Burgundy m. Isabelle de Bourbon

Marie, Duchess of Burgundy m. Maximilian I of Austria​

Antoine, Duke of Brabant and Limburg

Jean IV, Duke of Brabant and Limburg m. Jacqueline of Bavaria, Countess of Holland
Philippe, Duke of Brabant and Limburg m. Yolande d'Anjou

Antoine II, Duke of Brabant and Limburg (1433-1498) m: ?

Philippe II, Duke of Brabant and Limburg (1449-1501) m: ?

Marguerite (1483-) m: Charles II, Duke of Guelders (1467-)
Charlotte (1485-1488)
Jean V, Duke of Brabant and Limburg (1489-) m: ?

Philippe (1512)
Maximilien, Duke of Brabant and Limburg (1514-) m:
Anne (1516-)
Stillborn Son (1519)
Marguerite (1523-)
Stillborn Daughter (1526)
Marie (1529-)​

Anne (1490-) m:​

Yolande (1453-) m: Nicolas d'Anjou, Duke of Lorraine​

Philippe (1434-1465)
Isabelle (1437-) m: ?
Jean, Cardinal of the Church, Archbishop of Cambrai, Bishop of Utrecht (1439-1495)​

Would Antoine II succeed as Duke of Burgundy on the death of Charles the Rash? As to why Marie still marries Maximilian, I figure OTL Louis XI moved heaven and earth to stop her marrying anyone within France in order to avoid creating a state-within-a-state, so probably she still gets married abroad. Only difference is that here she doesn't abscond with the entire inheritance as she did OTL, Brabant and Limburg are still Valois.

I would imagine at some point where they can, the royal Valois are going to try and betrothe a dauphin to one of the daughters of the duke of Brabant. What do you guys think? Suggestions for duchesses of Brabant are welcome.

​

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Me again, beating my Valois-cadet drum.

It would seem that 1430s was a pretty bad time for inter-branch marriages in the house of Valois, since a lot of the brides had the misfortune (or good fortune) to die before the wedding. But how's this for a scenario:

Philippe, duc de Brabant lives an extra decade, and marries Yolande d'Anjou (OTL duchess of Brittany). They have a couple of children, three boys and a girl. Yolande's OTL bridegroom marries Princess Bona of Savoy (as he was supposed to, but she died, so here she lives). As to the main branch of Burgundy, things proceed as OTL.



Would Antoine II succeed as Duke of Burgundy on the death of Charles the Rash? As to why Marie still marries Maximilian, I figure OTL Louis XI moved heaven and earth to stop her marrying anyone within France in order to avoid creating a state-within-a-state, so probably she still gets married abroad. Only difference is that here she doesn't abscond with the entire inheritance as she did OTL, Brabant and Limburg are still Valois.

I would imagine at some point where they can, the royal Valois are going to try and betrothe a dauphin to one of the daughters of the duke of Brabant. What do you guys think? Suggestions for duchesses of Brabant are welcome.

​

What about Anna of Austria, duchess of Luxemburg as a bride for Antoine II. It's sort of two bites at a cherry, but assuming that her father's died without male heirs - or only Laszlo V - it means that she can chance the Brabantians with the chance of again inheriting Luxemburg. OTL she only had daughters though, but I'm sure she can have a son instead...

Not so sure about Louis XI wanting to stop someone who has a junior claim to Valois-Burgundy from marrying the heiress to Valois-Burgundy. OTL all the candidates that he blocked were higher up than Burgundy (Guyenne, Anjou, etc), while Brabant would be below them genealogically. So perhaps he allowed Philippe II of Brabant to marry Marie. Or perhaps not - since he would be creating a pretty large state on his border that if Philippe is anything like his Burgundian namesake - Philippe le Bon - is going to work against him. If he's like Jean IV of Brabant, not so much - I mean the man sold his wife's rights to her inherited territories to the duke of Burgundy because he needed money...

That would be interesting though - a TL idea where Jean IV and Jacqueline have a son, and then to see what would happen.

 

[Cornelis]

What about Anna of Austria, duchess of Luxemburg as a bride for Antoine II. It's sort of two bites at a cherry, but assuming that her father's died without male heirs - or only Laszlo V - it means that she can chance the Brabantians with the chance of again inheriting Luxemburg. OTL she only had daughters though, but I'm sure she can have a son instead...

Not so sure about Louis XI wanting to stop someone who has a junior claim to Valois-Burgundy from marrying the heiress to Valois-Burgundy. OTL all the candidates that he blocked were higher up than Burgundy (Guyenne, Anjou, etc), while Brabant would be below them genealogically. So perhaps he allowed Philippe II of Brabant to marry Marie. Or perhaps not - since he would be creating a pretty large state on his border that if Philippe is anything like his Burgundian namesake - Philippe le Bon - is going to work against him. If he's like Jean IV of Brabant, not so much - I mean the man sold his wife's rights to her inherited territories to the duke of Burgundy because he needed money...

That would be interesting though - a TL idea where Jean IV and Jacqueline have a son, and then to see what would happen.

I agree with Kevan on this one ; Louis XI stopped the french princes from marrying, but the Duke of Brabant is in almost every aspect a foreigner. His only possessions in France (Ligny and Saint-Pol) are not direct fiefdoms from the crown. Even if the king is mad at him, seizing imperial fiefdoms such as Brabant and Limburg is out of his reach.

On the salic law succession, OTL Louis XI stepped upon the Count of Nevers' rights in 1477. Even if the status of the Duchy of Burgundy was a bit unclear, the normal apanage law would have meant Jean succeeding Charles the Bold in the duchy - and he was an ally of Louis XI. We can conclude what, rights or no, Louis XI would move in Burgundy at Charles' death, even if a member of the Brabant line (senior to the Nevers one) is still alive then.

 

[JonasResende]

I'm wondering if I'm alone in thinking this, but after reading about the duke of Guyenne (Louis XI's brother), I can't help seeing certain similarities to George, duke of Clarence and Richard, duke of York. Like George he was never grateful for what he got, and always thought he was owed more than he was given, and like Richard, he spent most of his life being second-in-line to the throne, so the power went to his head, I guess.

If Guyenne were to marry (no Marie of Burgundy, his brother's going to curbstomp that one), maybe to Juana 'la Beltraneja' or Isabel 'la Catolica' of Castile*, how might this affect things? Sure it gets either lady out of the country, but would there be any French assistance in backing Guyenne's wife/children's claim to the Castilian throne against the other party? And if there was, could the duchesse de Guyenne become queen? What would a Valois Castile look like, and would anyone put up with it?

Another candidate I've heard was considered for Guyenne was Louise d'Anjou-Maine. With the understanding that she would inherit the rights to Naples. It seems a bit of a waste, considering that Guyenne had rights to Naples already through his mother, but hey, why not. Same question as before, if Louise/her children is left as the sole representative of the Valois-Anjou bloodline, could we see Guyenne claiming the titles of "Comte de Provence et Forcalquier, King of Naples" for his kids? Would he be interested in pushing his (wife's) claims to Naples. Would Louis XI back him, if only to get him out of France?

 

[JonasResende]

Me again, this time with another question about the various branches of the house of Valois with the main line.

The majority of French royal princesses between Charles V and Louis XII seem to have been married off to cousins in the varying cadet branches (Burgundy and Orléans particularly). This got me wondering why.

Was it because France was in the throes of the 100YW and couldn't afford dowries for foreign kings? Or because the main line distrusted the cadet lines, and sought to prevent them from forging foreign alliances? Or was it simply because the foreign powers didn't see Valois France as the horse to back? Most of the non-interfamily marriages were to dukes in Brittany or Savoy (who in many cases were half-Valois to start with anyway). In short, why did France "waste" these princesses when they could've been using them to match with more powerful pieces on the chessboard than the ducal cadets of Jean II?

 

[JonasResende]

I'm curious, Charles le Téméraire had an older half-sister, daughter of his father by his first wife, Michelle, named Agnès, apparently. But I can't seem to find a date of birth for her, can anyone help please? And if Agnes (who OTL died at birth) were to survive, how and where might she marry? The dauphin? A Brabantian cousin? Elsewhere?

After much searching, although maybe @Zulfurium (who marries Michelle to the duke of Anjou in their 100YW TL) knows more, it seems Agnes is a fictitious character, while her father and his second wife had a stillborn child (one source calls it une fille) on September 17 1425. I was curious, OTL there was a marriage between a bastard son or grandson of Navarre and an Anna (of unsure unsure bastard connection to the dukes of Brabant). Is a match between the Carlos of Aragon, Prince of Viana and this child (let's make it a girl and call her Bonne) at all possible (particularly in lieu of a match between he and Agnes of Cleves).

 

[Zulfurium]

After much searching, although maybe @Zulfurium (who marries Michelle to the duke of Anjou in their 100YW TL) knows more, it seems Agnes is a fictitious character, while her father and his second wife had a stillborn child (one source calls it une fille) on September 17 1425. I was curious, OTL there was a marriage between a bastard son or grandson of Navarre and an Anna (of unsure unsure bastard connection to the dukes of Brabant). Is a match between the Carlos of Aragon, Prince of Viana and this child (let's make it a girl and call her Anne) at all possible (particularly in lieu of a match between he and Agnes of Cleves).

I haven't been able to find a DoB for Agnés, but she seems to have died of some childhood malady. Philippe le Bon had three children with Isabella of Portugal, the eldest living to age 2, the second dying during or shortly after their birth and the final one being Charles le Téméraire.

I find a marriage by an illegitimate daughter to Carlos of Aragon, Prince of Viana, incredibly unlikely. It seems much more likely that it is a match between two illegitimate children who aren't remarked on further - something that happened with some regularity during the period.

I hope that helps

 

[JonasResende]

I find a marriage by an illegitimate daughter to Carlos of Aragon, Prince of Viana, incredibly unlikely. It seems much more likely that it is a match between two illegitimate children who aren't remarked on further - something that happened with some regularity during the period.

I actually meant that if Philippe and his second wife's 1425 child survived. If we go with that it is a girl (so as to disrupt the history of the Low Countries as little as possible), might she be married to Carlos of Aragon? OTL his wife was a niece/cousin of the duke of Burgundy, here, it's the duke's daughter.

 

[Zulfurium]

I actually meant that if Philippe and his second wife's 1425 child survived. If we go with that it is a girl (so as to disrupt the history of the Low Countries as little as possible), might she be married to Carlos of Aragon? OTL his wife was a niece/cousin of the duke of Burgundy, here, it's the duke's daughter.

Oh, that makes a lot more sense, with that understanding I think she actually makes a better match than his OTL wife. If she has children by him, that creates a really fascinating situation with France closed in on two sides by relatively unfriendly powers later on. If you get to the wars of Louis XI, then this could create an important dynamic.

 

[JonasResende]

Oh, that makes a lot more sense, with that understanding I think she actually makes a better match than his OTL wife. If she has children by him, that creates a really fascinating situation with France closed in on two sides by relatively unfriendly powers later on. If you get to the wars of Louis XI, then this could create an important dynamic.

I guess it would also depend on what the duke of Burgundy's relationship with his son/half-brother-in-law is like, I suppose. Charles might treat Carlos similarly to how he treated Edward IV - he only supported him when it was in his (Burgundy)'s interests to do so, and wanted his help taking on France, but then didn't actually want him (Edward) in any territory controlled by Burgundy IIRC. So Edward flipped him the bird and the result was the Treaty of Picquigny.

Besides, wasn't Carlos (or Juan II) ICR which, extremely pro-French while the other was anti-French?

 

[Zulfurium]

Of the two, I am pretty sure Carlos was the anti-French of the two. He had an attempted betrothal in Brittany nixed by them and threw a fit over it.

You might well be right about Carlos turning his back on Charles, but then again wierder things than Charles le Temeraire working with another human being have happened. Though, I can't think of any examples off the top of my head.

 

[Kaze]

You must also remember that Jeanne de Valois-Saint-Rémy, "Comtesse de la Motte" - was a direct decendant of Count Henry de Saint-Remey, an illegitimate son of King Henry II.
Jeanne de Valois proceeded to have a prominent role in the "Affair of the Diamond Necklace", one of the major scandals that led to the French Revolution.
If Count Henry de Saint-Remey became legitimate... it would bolster Jeanne's ability to cause scandal.