Branches of the Valois

[JonasResende]

The house of Valois went through a whittling down in the late 15th-early 16th century - the extinction of the branches of Burgundy, Anjou, Alençon, Berri and Orléans - that led to the house of Bourbon succeeding King Henri III.

What would the result have been if those branches that had been whittled down were to survive? What would 16th century France have looked like?

 

[JedidiahStott]

Smaller, I suspect.

 

[Yorel]

Too many butterflies to be sure of what France would look like. The only sure thing is that the King of France would belong to the House of Valois. Not only would the succession change, but each and every cadet branches of the Valois had its own personnal story. And a branch surviving means more people that live on, marry and thus alter the succession even more.

Here is a simplified OTL Valois family tree that should explain what I mean.

Main Valois Line
Philippe VI (1293-1350) King of France 1328-1350
Jean II the Good (1319-1364) King of France 1350-1364
Charles V the Wise (1338-1380) King of France 1364-1380
Charles VI the Mad (1368-1422) King of France 1380-1422
Charles VII the Victorious (1403-1461) King of France 1422-1461
Louis XI the Prudent (1423-1483) King of France 1461-1483
Charles VIII the Affable (1470-1498) King of France 1483-1498

Valois-Orléans Line
Louis d'Orléans (1372-1407) Brother of Charles VI. Duke of Orléans
Charles d'Orléans (1394-1465) Duke of Orléans
Louis XII (1462-1515) King of France 1498-1515

Valois-Angoulême Line
Jean d'Orléans (1400-1467) Third son of Louis d'Orléans. Count of Angoulême.
Charles d'Orléans (1459-1496) Count of Angoulême
François I (1494-1547) King of France 1515-1547
Henri II (1519-1559) King of France 1547-1559
François II (1544-1560) King of France 1559-1560
Charles IX (1550-1574) Brother of François II. King of France 1560-1574
Henri III (1551-1589) Brother of Charles IX. King of France 1574-1589

Valois-Anjou Line
Louis I (1339-1384) Second son of Jean II. Duke of Anjou. Titular King of Naples (1382-1384)
Louis II (1377-1417) Duke of Anjou. Titular King of Naples (1384-1417)
Louis III (1404-1434) Duke of Anjou. Titular King of Naples (1417-1434)
"Good King" René (1409-1480) Brother of Louis III. Duke of Anjou. Father of Margaret, wife of Henry VI of England.
Jean II of Lorraine (1425-1470) Son of René. Duke of Lorraine
Nicolas of Lorraine (1448-1473) Duke of Lorraine

Charles IV (1414-1472) Second son of Louis II, Duke of Anjou. Count of Maine.
Charles V (1446-1481) Count of Maine. Duke of Anjou (1480-1481)

Valois-Berry Line
Jean I the Magnificient (1340-1416) Third son of Jean II of France. Duke of Berry
Jean II (1363-1401) Count of Montpensier

Valois-Burgundy Line
Philippe II the Brave (1342-1404) Fourth son of Jean II of France. Duke of Burgundy
John the Fearless (1371-1419) Duke of Burgundy & Count of Flanders
Philippe III the Good (1396-1467) Duke of Burgundy & Count of Flanders
Charles the Bold (1433-1477) Duke of Burgundy & Count of Flanders

 

[JonasResende]

I was wondering something earlier, if these varying cadet lines of the parent house were to survive alongside the Valois-Orléans or Valois-Angoulême branch of until 1589, what are the chances of foreign powers using them to stir up trouble in France? And will Louis XII and co still be able to centralize France as they did OTL?

 

[Matteo]

Smaller, I suspect.

Why ?

Going from an elder line to a lesser Line of a dynasty does not by itself imply changing strategic interests and goals of a kingdom ?

Was there a change in France's strategic goals when the Valois Angouleme succeeded to the Valois Orleans ? No. France kept in trying to take control of parts of Italy.

France's push eastwards into Lotharingia started under Henry II of the house of Valois (who set the french foot in Lorraine by taking control of Metz, Toul and Verdun), and continued until Napoleon's downfall.

 

[Cornelis]

Since Francis Ist's times, the other lines of french royalty (Alençon and Bourbon) had quite small holdings, so they are not a real threat to the royal power. On the other hand, if one of the junior lines of the Valois with extensive holdings outside of the kingdom (Burgundy obviously or Anjou with Lorraine) eventually gets the crown, France would actually be larger. Now, if every line continues into the 16th c. without any intervention of the royal power, things can get messy for the king. Nonetheless, the effectiveness of the salic law in reducing the succession issues is not to prove. I can not see a War of the Lilies in France.

 

[JonasResende]

There was a bastard branch of the house of Anjou (barons de Mezieres) that survived until the end of the 16th century, finally marrying the Bourbon duc de Montpensier, what if this line was legitimate? Say Nicolas d'Anjou gets a wife before his OTL death leaving a young son, and it goes from there. Obviously this changes the whole history of Lorraine at that period, but how might the Anjous affect the history both of France and of Lorraine (and maybe Italy), since on the surface, Charles VIII wouldn't have reason to invade Italy because he doesn't inherit the Angevin claim to Naples.

 

[Cornelis]

There was a bastard branch of the house of Anjou (barons de Mezieres) that survived until the end of the 16th century, finally marrying the Bourbon duc de Montpensier, what if this line was legitimate? Say Nicolas d'Anjou gets a wife before his OTL death leaving a young son, and it goes from there. Obviously this changes the whole history of Lorraine at that period, but how might the Anjous affect the history both of France and of Lorraine (and maybe Italy), since on the surface, Charles VIII wouldn't have reason to invade Italy because he doesn't inherit the Angevin claim to Naples.

Marrying into the Anjou would be a priority for the main Valois line, similar to the Brittany succession OTL. For the Italian Wars, Charles VIII would not invade Naples, but he could always enforce his Orléans cousin's claim to Milan, a more realist goal. Furthermore, if there is no need of Alexander VI's approval to the divorce of Louis (the Brittany succession, again), the French could actually be enemies to the Borgias. Maybe an earlier council of Pisa and an anglican-like schism, with the Church of France becoming independent. Rallying against Alexander VI for religious reasons is easier than against Jules II or Leo X.

 

[JonasResende]

Marrying into the Anjou would be a priority for the main Valois line, similar to the Brittany succession OTL. For the Italian Wars, Charles VIII would not invade Naples, but he could always enforce his Orléans cousin's claim to Milan, a more realist goal. Furthermore, if there is no need of Alexander VI's approval to the divorce of Louis (the Brittany succession, again), the French could actually be enemies to the Borgias. Maybe an earlier council of Pisa and an anglican-like schism, with the Church of France becoming independent. Rallying against Alexander VI for religious reasons is easier than against Jules II or Leo X.

I'm not sure I follow. If Charles VIII still dies without children, then the duc d'Orléans would succeed him. And Louis would want the Breton succession secured to the Valois, and if he's still married to Jeanne de Valois, he's going to appeal for a divorce from Rome. It would only be if Charles outlives his sister that such a measure would be unnecessary. Or am I misunderstanding?

 

[Cornelis]

Securing the Anjou inheritance by marriage would appear more important than securing the Brittany succession, so Charles would not marry Anne of Brittany, but an Anjou girl, a daughter of Nicholas.

By reading about Nicholas of Lorraine, I learn he was engaged to Mary of Burgundy. ITTL, we could have a Nicholas-Mary match in 1473, no Lorraine-Burgundy war and a longer-living Charles the Bold. It butterflies away pretty much everything I have said earlier. The Anjou-Burgundy juggernaut would be the player in these 1500', perhaps consolidating itself as an united kingdom, from the North Sea to the Mediterranean.

 

[JonasResende]

Securing the Anjou inheritance by marriage would appear more important than securing the Brittany succession, so Charles would not marry Anne of Brittany, but an Anjou girl, a daughter of Nicholas.

By reading about Nicholas of Lorraine, I learn he was engaged to Mary of Burgundy. ITTL, we could have a Nicholas-Mary match in 1473, no Lorraine-Burgundy war and a longer-living Charles the Bold. It butterflies away pretty much everything I have said earlier. The Anjou-Burgundy juggernaut would be the player in these 1500', perhaps consolidating itself as an united kingdom, from the North Sea to the Mediterranean.

Fair enough, although I could imagine a Lotharingian empire cleaving Europe in two would have to play the French and the HRE against one another. That said, I could still imagine Charles marrying Anne if Nicolas has no daughters? I mean, the OTL dukes of Lorraine at the time period (Frederic de Vaudémont's daughters left no issue that I can find, René II's died in infancy or before marriage) plus I could think that a match with Guelders' heiress presumptive would look still more attractive to someone who is heir to both Burgundy and Lorraine than just Lorraine - so I think that that match will still go through, provided Nicolas has an age appropriate son.

 

[JonasResende]

Since Francis Ist's times, the other lines of french royalty (Alençon and Bourbon) had quite small holdings, so they are not a real threat to the royal power. On the other hand, if one of the junior lines of the Valois with extensive holdings outside of the kingdom (Burgundy obviously or Anjou with Lorraine) eventually gets the crown, France would actually be larger. Now, if every line continues into the 16th c. without any intervention of the royal power, things can get messy for the king. Nonetheless, the effectiveness of the salic law in reducing the succession issues is not to prove. I can not see a War of the Lilies in France.

What if we were to combine the holdings of the Alençons and the Bourbons (main line)? The duc and duchesse de Bourbon forced Louis XII to agree to acknowledge their young daughter, Suzanne, as heiress to all her father's domains. Her original betrothed, the next in line, her cousin, the duc de Montpensier(?) wasn't very happy and reportedly angrily said to Pierre II that the Bourbon dukedom was his by right and not something he should thank either his wife or father-in-law for. Fortunately, the duke and Pierre II died right about the same time, which led to Suzanne marrying the Connétable de Bourbon, Charles III, but her père had previously got Louis XII to sign off on her marrying the duc d'Alençon (Charles IV), and their children inheriting the Bourbon-Clermont territories.

Now we have the Bourbon-Valois-Alençons, who control both families' estates - and François I has no excuse to swipe the lion's share of the Alençon estates if they die childless as his sister's widow portion (since Marguerite d'Angoulême will be married off elsewhere. Where? Maybe Gaston de Foix, duc de Nemours?). Granted, there will be some bickering between the Bourbons and the Valois, but they didn't exactly get along famously OTL either.

 

[Cornelis]

What if we were to combine the holdings of the Alençons and the Bourbons (main line)? The duc and duchesse de Bourbon forced Louis XII to agree to acknowledge their young daughter, Suzanne, as heiress to all her father's domains. Her original betrothed, the next in line, her cousin, the duc de Montpensier(?) wasn't very happy and reportedly angrily said to Pierre II that the Bourbon dukedom was his by right and not something he should thank either his wife or father-in-law for. Fortunately, the duke and Pierre II died right about the same time, which led to Suzanne marrying the Connétable de Bourbon, Charles III, but her père had previously got Louis XII to sign off on her marrying the duc d'Alençon (Charles IV), and their children inheriting the Bourbon-Clermont territories.

Now we have the Bourbon-Valois-Alençons, who control both families' estates - and François I has no excuse to swipe the lion's share of the Alençon estates if they die childless as his sister's widow portion (since Marguerite d'Angoulême will be married off elsewhere. Where? Maybe Gaston de Foix, duc de Nemours?). Granted, there will be some bickering between the Bourbons and the Valois, but they didn't exactly get along famously OTL either.

The exact status of the Bourbon estates was ambiguous, as a former "regular" lordship being retroactively converted to an apanage following the marriage of Jean de Bourbon and Marie de Berry. Surely we can imagine a situation where Louis XII is strong-armed in a female-line transmission to Suzanne and Charles IV of Alençon. Maybe some lordships would go to Charles of Montpensier (only a Count, I think), in order to sweeten the new inheritance deal (Dombes+Roannais ?). In 1500, assuming Charles VIII wed Anne and had the same fate, the "Lilies list" would be as such :

1. The King, Louis XII m. Anne de Bretagne, Duchess of Brittany
2. The Duke of Valois, François d'Orléans (° 1494)
3. The Duke of Anjou, Bar and Lorraine, Nicolas d'Anjou (° 1448) m. Filippa van Egmont, Duchess of Guelders (° 1467)
4. The Duke of Burgundy, Brabant, Limburg, Charles d'Anjou (° 1478)
5. The Count of Guise, Louis d'Anjou (° 1489)
6. The Duke of Alençon, René de Valois (° 1454) m. Marguerite de Vaudémont
7. Charles de Valois (° 1489) b. Suzanne de Bourbon, Duchess of Bourbon and Auvergne
8. The Count of Montpensier, Charles de Bourbon (° 1490)
9. The Count of Vendôme, Charles de Bourbon (° 1489)
10. The Count of Saint-Pol, François de Bourbon (° 1491)
11. The Prince of La Roche sur Yon, Louis de Bourbon (° 1473)
12. (Maybe) The Lord of Carency, Charles de Bourbon (° 1444) m. Catherine d'Alègre
13. (Maybe) The Lord of Duisant, Antoine de Bourbon

I hope young Valois is not prone to accidents...

 

[JonasResende]

The exact status of the Bourbon estates was ambiguous, as a former "regular" lordship being retroactively converted to an apanage following the marriage of Jean de Bourbon and Marie de Berry. Surely we can imagine a situation where Louis XII is strong-armed in a female-line transmission to Suzanne and Charles IV of Alençon. Maybe some lordships would go to Charles of Montpensier (only a Count, I think), in order to sweeten the new inheritance deal (Dombes+Roannais ?). In 1500, assuming Charles VIII wed Anne and had the same fate, the "Lilies list" would be as such :

1. The King, Louis XII m. Anne de Bretagne, Duchess of Brittany
2. The Duke of Valois, François d'Orléans (° 1494)
3. The Duke of Anjou, Bar and Lorraine, Nicolas d'Anjou (° 1448) m. Filippa van Egmont, Duchess of Guelders (° 1467)
4. The Duke of Burgundy, Brabant, Limburg, Charles d'Anjou (° 1478)
5. The Count of Guise, Louis d'Anjou (° 1489)
6. The Duke of Alençon, René de Valois (° 1454) m. Marguerite de Vaudémont
7. Charles de Valois (° 1489) b. Suzanne de Bourbon, Duchess of Bourbon and Auvergne
8. The Count of Montpensier, Charles de Bourbon (° 1490)
9. The Duke of Châtellerault, François de Bourbon (° 1492)
10. The Count of Vendôme, Charles de Bourbon (° 1489)
11. The Count of Saint-Pol, François de Bourbon (° 1491)
12. The Prince of La Roche sur Yon, Louis de Bourbon (° 1473)
13. (Maybe) The Lord of Carency, Charles de Bourbon (° 1444) m. Catherine d'Alègre
14. (Maybe) The Lord of Carency, Bertrand de Bourbon (° 1494)
15. (Maybe) The Lord of Duisant, Antoine de Bourbon

I hope young Valois is not prone to accidents...

I'm curious though, who's the duke of Burgundy, Brant and Limburg? Since if he's Filippa of Guelders' son, she's only nine when he's born. And if Nicolas has daughters earlier (say by a first marriage), won't they replace their Vaudémont cousins as wives for the ducs d'Alençon and comte de Guise? If not, I could see that being the line up.

That said, maybe the comte de Guise can marry his OTL equivalent's wife (Antoinette de Bourbon-Vendôme) unless you think Marguerite d'Angoulême might be a better match for him?

 

[Cornelis]

I'm curious though, who's the duke of Burgundy, Brant and Limburg? Since if he's Filippa of Guelders' son, she's only nine when he's born. And if Nicolas has daughters earlier (say by a first marriage), won't they replace their Vaudémont cousins as wives for the ducs d'Alençon and comte de Guise? If not, I could see that being the line up.

That said, maybe the comte de Guise can marry his OTL equivalent's wife (Antoinette de Bourbon-Vendôme) unless you think Marguerite d'Angoulême might be a better match for him?

The son of Nicolas d'Anjou and Marie de Bourgogne. If she died as OTL, her husband can remarry and wed the Guelders girl, having a second son with her. For simplicity, I have assumed both Marie and Filippa would have their sons at the same age as OTL, only with a different husband, the PODed Nicolas.

 

[JonasResende]

The son of Nicolas d'Anjou and Marie de Bourgogne. If she died as OTL, her husband can remarry and wed the Guelders girl, having a second son with her. For simplicity, I have assumed both Marie and Filippa would have their sons at the same age as OTL, only with a different husband, the PODed Nicolas.

Fair enough.

Would Alençon's sisters still be as good matches for their OTL husbands (the ducs de Longueville/Vendôme/marquis de Montferrat) with several French princesses du sang standing above them? Or if they are, would it be thanks to their brother's marriage to Suzanne de Bourbon?

 

[Cornelis]

Fair enough.

Would Alençon's sisters still be as good matches for their OTL husbands (the ducs de Longueville/Vendôme/marquis de Montferrat) with several French princesses du sang standing above them? Or if they are, would it be thanks to their brother's marriage to Suzanne de Bourbon?

Tanks for the brother of Charles de Bourbon (still only Viscount of Chatellerault at that time).

I did not work it too hard, but I think we can stick with the Alençon-Vaudémont marriage as a way to unite the Alençon and the Anjou (assuming for instance Nicolas has no available daughter, so they made do with a cousin). So, two girls, wed OTL in 1505 and 1508. How about a list of princesses ?

1. Anne de France (° 1461) m. Pierre de Bourbon, Duke of Bourbon (†)
2. Jeanne de France, Duchess of Berry (° 1464)
3. Claude de France (° 1499)
4. Marguerite d'Orléans (Angoulême) (° 1492)
5. Marguerite d'Anjou (° 1480)
6. Françoise de Valois (Alençon) (° 1490)
7. Anne de Valois (Alençon) (° 1492)
8. Suzanne de Bourbon (° 1491)
9. Louise de Bourbon (Montpensier) (° 1482)
10. Renée de Bourbon (Montpensier) (° 1494)
11. Gabrielle de Bourbon (Montpensier) (° 1447) m. Louis de la Trémoïlle, Viscount of Thouard
12. Charlotte de Bourbon (Montpensier) (° 1449) m. Wolfert van Borssele, Count of Granpré
13. Antoinette de Bourbon (Vendôme) (° 1493)
14. Louise de Bourbon (Vendôme) (° 1495)
15. Jeanne de Bourbon (Vendôme) (° 1461) m. Gilbert de Chabannes
16. Jeanne de Bourbon (Vendôme) (° 1465) m. Jean de La Tour, Count of Auvergne
17. Renée de Bourbon (Vendôme) (° 1468)
18. Charlotte de Bourbon (Vendôme) (° 1474) m. Gijsbert van Cleve, Count of Nevers
19. Isabelle de Bourbon (Vendôme) (° 1475)

The Alençon girls are still in a good position (while the Vendôme...), but maybe matches more linked to the Armagnac inheritance ? Like Gaston de Foix (picking a fight with the Albret-Navarre) or his cousin Gaston de Foix-Candale (a bit lacking in prestige). Longueville still makes sense for the Norman connexion, but maybe Montferrat could be butterflied away. It really depends of the Italian policy ITTL. In this perspective, an appeasement match with Charles de Bourbon strengthen the links between Valois and Bourbon (and allows for a compensatory dowry).

 

[JonasResende]

Tanks for the brother of Charles de Bourbon (still only Viscount of Chatellerault at that time).

I did not work it too hard, but I think we can stick with the Alençon-Vaudémont marriage as a way to unite the Alençon and the Anjou (assuming for instance Nicolas has no available daughter, so they made do with a cousin). So, two girls, wed OTL in 1505 and 1508. How about a list of princesses ?

The Alençon girls are still in a good position (while the Vendôme...), but maybe matches more linked to the Armagnac inheritance ? Like Gaston de Foix (picking a fight with the Albret-Navarre) or his cousin Gaston de Foix-Candale (a bit lacking in prestige). Longueville still makes sense for the Norman connexion, but maybe Montferrat could be butterflied away. It really depends of the Italian policy ITTL. In this perspective, an appeasement match with Charles de Bourbon strengthen the links between Valois and Bourbon (and allows for a compensatory dowry).

You're welcome.

That said, Gaston would technically be more closely related to Louis XII - his nephew - rather than any of the Albrets in Navarre (Queen Catherine is the daughter of Louis XI's sister, while Jean d'Albret is son of Anne, duchesse de Bretagne's cousin, the Vicomte de Rohan). So, perhaps as a way to make up for pissing them off, Louis XII arranges marriages for Catherine's daughters (she had quite a few who went unmarried) into various other branches of the Valois or even as proxy matches into Italy and Germany.

 

[Cornelis]

You're welcome.

That said, Gaston would technically be more closely related to Louis XII - his nephew - rather than any of the Albrets in Navarre (Queen Catherine is the daughter of Louis XI's sister, while Jean d'Albret is son of Anne, duchesse de Bretagne's cousin, the Vicomte de Rohan). So, perhaps as a way to make up for pissing them off, Louis XII arranges marriages for Catherine's daughters (she had quite a few who went unmarried) into various other branches of the Valois or even as proxy matches into Italy and Germany.

We can think of such a plan, but the real price on the marriage market for young ladies is Charles d'Anjou-Burgundy. I do not think his father would like him to marry some Navarran half-princess when he has a shot at becoming the HRE's mightiest prince. BTW, would not Vladislaus II of Bohemia-Hungary be really interested in the hand of Marguerite d'Anjou ? A much more profitable match than Anne de Foix-Candale. And Vladislaus has some sisters of suitable age for Charles...

 

[JonasResende]

We can think of such a plan, but the real price on the marriage market for young ladies is Charles d'Anjou-Burgundy. I do not think his father would like him to marry some Navarran half-princess when he has a shot at becoming the HRE's mightiest prince. BTW, would not Vladislaus II of Bohemia-Hungary be really interested in the hand of Marguerite d'Anjou ? A much more profitable match than Anne de Foix-Candale. And Vladislaus has some sisters of suitable age for Charles...

Could make for fun times. Although HRE Maximilian is likely as not married to one of those same sisters (since he was OTL betrothed to Sophia of Poland before Marie of Burgundy became available). But Vlad's not King of Hungary just yet, Matyas Corvinus is still ruling there, and he has a bastard son (at least) who he would be very interested in marrying to a legitimate princess (1) for the prestige attached to such a match, and (2) to ensure that the bastard has some very threatening relatives to dissuade the Hungarian nobility from ranging against him as OTL. I think if not for certain reasons, Matyas might have even tried to hornswoggle HRE Friedrich III into letting him marry the Archduchess Margarethe to Janos Corvinus (were it not for German marriage laws)