Brainstorming for Highly Advanced Pre-Columbian America via Vinland.

I guess Vinland is not necessary. I just want highly advanced states in the americas by 1492.

Still, thinking about a PoD in the 900s, could the following be true?

-Chichen Itza vassalizing the surrounding mayan city-states of the Yucatan Peninsula, and on the way towards centralization.

-Either a Taino state in the Caribbean, or Mayan independent settlements.

-Mixtec city-states filling the Isthmus of Tehuantepec.

-Toltecs dominating Central Mexico.

-Tarascans firmly hugging the pacific coast of mexico.

-Missisipian city-states along that river.

-Large Iroqui Empire centered around the St. Lawrence and New England.
 
You'd have to ask 9 Fanged about Chichen Itza, but I recall him saying that the Maya collapse could be averted by one kingdom keeping a military hegemony. Not even an empire, you just need one actor capable of keeping the peace so that the other city states don't fight and instead focus on more useful things like anti-drought measures.

There were already Taino states in the Caribbean IOTL (they lived under chiefs, so they did have a state organization). Mayan outposts in the Caribbean could help, if only to teach the Taino how to play colonialists for their own gain.

While Vinland is not necessary, it could help-A successful Vinland (let's define 'success' as a small permanent outpost) could introduce sheep and weaving to the natives of the northeast. That's very big-no longer limited in population by the deer they could convert into clothing for winter, the population could get much higher-thus sparking the creation of an "Iroquois Empire".
 
Disease will make any additional success you create in precolumbian societies an order of magnitude weaker, though not totally steamrollable.
 
Disease will make any additional success you create in precolumbian societies an order of magnitude weaker, though not totally steamrollable.

If the Americans can defeat the Europeans in the first few battles so decisively that the latter think twice before sending another expedition, there's the chance that by the time they return the disease will have already run its course and the population recovered.
 

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I guess Vinland is not necessary. I just want highly advanced states in the americas by 1492.

Still, thinking about a PoD in the 900s, could the following be true?

-Chichen Itza vassalizing the surrounding mayan city-states of the Yucatan Peninsula, and on the way towards centralization.

-Either a Taino state in the Caribbean, or Mayan independent settlements.

-Mixtec city-states filling the Isthmus of Tehuantepec.

-Toltecs dominating Central Mexico.

-Tarascans firmly hugging the pacific coast of mexico.

-Missisipian city-states along that river.

-Large Iroqui Empire centered around the St. Lawrence and New England.
Well, with Vinland you could introduce horses and iron tools (not to say the latter could not be eventually made by the natives), which would be a huge boon for any American Civilization.
 
If the Americans can defeat the Europeans in the first few battles so decisively that the latter think twice before sending another expedition, there's the chance that by the time they return the disease will have already run its course and the population recovered.

Hmmm...smallpox hit Iceland in 1241 in our time. The Little Ice Age had started, so that would probably be around the time any voyages to the Americas would slow down or cease, but this could be a chance to introduce the disease there.

Quite possible, an outbreak of smallpox caused by refugees from Iceland destroys the Vinland colony (assuming you still want to do that), scattering its inhabitants and forcing them to merge with the local tribes. Smallpox works its way to the Mississippi, where the disease becomes endemic due to the denser population and the quick travel along the river. By the time Europeans come back, in the Mississippi valley at least smallpox is only a childhood disease. Other epidemics will hurt the Natives, but they will have recovered from and almost all adults would be immune to the big killer smallpox.

Not sure if smallpox could reach Mesoamerica from North America, as the population between these two centers would be pretty sparse and scattered. If it does, though, the same thing would happen. An initial contact that goes exactly as ours did would end up with *Cortes dead, as there wouldn't be an epidemic of smallpox to weaken whatever equivalent of the Aztecs he faces.
 
On every Vineland thread there has alway been the question of how to get enough people to go there to make it viable. No one has yet, I think suggested a large volcanic outbreak on Iceland on scale of the one in the late 1700's where up to 1/4 of the population died. Have one happen around the year 1000 and you might find lots of people willing to go.
 
I guess Vinland is not necessary. I just want highly advanced states in the americas by 1492.

Still, thinking about a PoD in the 900s, could the following be true?

-Chichen Itza vassalizing the surrounding mayan city-states of the Yucatan Peninsula, and on the way towards centralization.

-Either a Taino state in the Caribbean, or Mayan independent settlements.

-Mixtec city-states filling the Isthmus of Tehuantepec.

-Toltecs dominating Central Mexico.

-Tarascans firmly hugging the pacific coast of mexico.

-Missisipian city-states along that river.

-Large Iroqui Empire centered around the St. Lawrence and New England.
The biggest problem here are the Toltecs. There is simply no archaeological evidence they existed as popularly believed. Most if not all we know about the Toltecs comes from Aztec historiography, which is unreliable to say the least. They probably invented them to give themselves a claim to legitimacy, pretending to be the heirs to a civilization that supposedly dominated the area before them. But the problem is that more contemporary histories to the "Toltecs" give no indication they really existed. What we know of the time period suggests that central Mexico was dotted with numerous city-states at this time who were jostling for power to fill the vacuum left by the fall of Teotihuacan. The most prominent was probably Cholula.

The word Toltec for that matter is really just a Nahuatl word meaning something like artisan. They went out of their way to depict the Toltecs as some sort of perfect civilization, like a Mesoamerican Atlantis, and claimed it was a massive empire. And until recently it was popularly believed the Toltecs were the ones who founded Chichen Itza, but this narrative falls apart when you consider that Chichen Itza is actually larger than Tula, the supposed Toltec capital "Tollan". If anything the influence went the other way. But past historians seem to have just taken the Aztecs at their word, despite the fact they should've known that Tlacaelel burned all Mexica histories during his reign.

Now, that said there could still feasibly be an empire in central Mexico dominating the others at this time like Teotihuacan before and Tenochtitlan later, but it'd be best to ignore the claims of a Toltec civilization doing the ruling. The most likely candidate for a Terminal Classic central Mexican hegemon would definitely be Cholula. I think it was still the second biggest city in Mesoamerica when the Spanish arrived, and it still has the largest monument in the world by volume at least. And Mixtec histories also refer to Cholula. The greatest, or at least most famous, Mixtec warlord, 8 Deer Jaguar Claw, was recorded making tribute to Cholula in the 1100's IIRC.
 
I was aware of the Toltec's debated historicity, but the idealized narrative was appealing for a TL. Probably not a good idea for a variety of reasons.

Though to be honest, I'd rather try to extend Teotihuacan's dominance until the 15th Century or so. Ideally have the Classical Period continue, not only for Teotihuacan but for the Mayans too (overpopulation solved by settler colonies in the Caribbean?) But from what I gathered in Google, very little is known about Teotihuacan in general, beyond that it was supposed to be a cosmopolitan multi-thnic civilization.
 
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On every Vineland thread there has alway been the question of how to get enough people to go there to make it viable.

That's easy. Have them settle further south. Halifax would be a great location for a Viking colony. There is strong circumstantial evidence to suggest that the Vikings may have explored the Gulf of St. Lawrence. From there, its not very far to Nova Scotia. Halifax has a very large natural harbour, which has comparatively little ice for most of the winter and is not far from the Grand Banks, so the settlers will have ready access to large stocks of fish, in addition whales, dolphins and seal colonies. There are a number of rivers that flow into the harbour, as well as numerous lakes in the area, so the settlers will have easy access to drinkable water. Accounts by early settlers indicate that the area around Halifax was heavily forested, which means ready access to timber for ship building, which would provide employment and draw addition settlers. A more southerly location also means better weather and a longer growing season. The harbour is also ringed by hills, upon which defenses can be built. Have the Vikings establish a settlement either on the OTL site of Halifax, or at the mouth of the Sackville River, and their colonization efforts will be much more successful.
 
I was aware of the Toltec's debated historicity, but the idealized narrative was appealing for a TL. Probably not a good idea for a variety of reasons.

Though to be honest, I'd rather try to extend Teotihuacan's dominance until the 15th Century or so. Ideally have the Classical Period continue, not only for Teotihuacan but for the Mayans too (overpopulation solved by settler colonies in the Caribbean?) But from what I gathered in Google, very little is known about Teotihuacan in general, beyond that it was supposed to be a cosmopolitan multi-thnic civilization.
It's theoretically doable, though yeah, you'd have to use hypotheses and guesswork as to what their empire was like. In my TL I just supposed that they were dominated by Otomi peoples with a lot of other ethnic groups including Nahua immigrants. But there are many other options to go with as well.

Averting the Collapse for the Maya is much easier though since we have a much clearer idea of Maya history thanks to surviving inscriptions in cities. The environmental problems on their own weren't bad enough to do Maya civilization in the way it happened, and the Maya did notice the environmental problems and try to solve them. The root of the collapse at least in the Maya area can be traced to politics, namely political instability. The hegemony of the strongest kingdom was broken but nobody really filled the vacuum completely and the endemic warfare limited peoples' methods to survive the other problems such as drought and overpopulation. Have more political stability in the Late Classic era, kingdoms could make wells and irrigation systems in peace and move settlers into less densely populated areas.
 
One thing about the Iroquoian politics before the Euros showed up, the Erie were pretty powerful. They occupied a good position in regards to trade and protecting themselves vs the Huron/Wendat and the Haudenosaunee/Iroquois. But once the French, Dutch, and English showed up, the other groups were in a better position to trade and blocked the Erie from getting European goods and weaponry, ultimately dooming them when the Beaver Wars flared up.
 
I was thinking that the Iroquois as we known them would probably be butterflied away with a PoD before 1000, and Vinland so close. Their component nations would probably survive though, but go their own ways.

Was thinking of Vinland-derived states filling what is now NE United States.
 
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