Brainstorming: British Colonisation of China

Instead of British Raj, we have a British Cháo in China (India can be either free ir colonized ITTL)

It can be both an AHC and a What If, please feel free to say whatever you want.

1) With the fall of Ming, Qing failed to take over, China broke up into several states, allowing the Brits to play "divide and conquer". ( you can think of other pods)

2) Where is the capital of British Cháo, and who is(are) the puppet Emperor(s)?

3) According to the British habit of classifying the conquered people into Martial Races and non-martial ones, who are the Martial Races in China?

4) Would Mongolia, Tibet be under British China just like British Indian Burma?

5) Classical Chinese or Spoken Chinese? Latinisation or Chinese Characters? Would the Lingua Franca of British China be English or one of the Chinese Dialects?

6) Would Chinese soldiers be used fight Britain's wars, just like Sikhs and Gujaratis?

7) What would be British Colonisers' opium policy?

8) Enforcing cash crops on the peasantry

9) Resistance. Chinese Queen of Jhansi? Chinese Gandhi? Who?

10) Would the famines be better or worse than OTL?

11) By the time of independence, Chinese perception of the British Cháo, who are going to miss them? Who are going to hate them?

12) Colonial Competitors. France? United States?

13) Impact on neighbours?

14) By independence, size of economy and size of territory as compared to OTL?
 
Last edited:
8 minutes isn't that long. I'm not knowledgeable, but I'll try to help (bolded where I try to answer)

Instead of British Raj, we have a British Cháo in China

It can be both an AHC and a What If, please feel free to say whatever you want.

1) With the fall of Ming, Qing failed to take over, China broke up into several states, allowing the Brits to play "divide and conquer". ( you can think of other pods)

2) Where is the capital of British Cháo, and who is(are) the puppet Emperor(s)?

3) According to the British habit of classifying the conquered people into Martial Races and non-martial ones, who are the Martial Races in China?

4) Would Mongolia, Tibet be under British China just like British Indian Burma? Possible, and possible they'd get split apart like Burma did. There's certainly more historical ground for this than Burma

5) Classical Chinese or Spoken Chinese? Latinisation or Chinese Characters? Would the Lingua Franca of British China be English or one of the Chinese Dialects? If India is anything to go by, the most prevalent local language - which might not even be Chinese at all (though in most regions, it would at least be related)

6) Would Chinese soldiers be used fight Britain's wars, just like Sikhs and Gujaratis? Was adopted by other colonial empires as well, so I would assume so

7) What would be British Colonisers' opium policy?

8) Enforcing cash crops on the peasantry

9) Resistance. Chinese Queen of Jhansi? Chinese Gandhi? Who?

10) Would the famines be better or worse than OTL?

11) By the time of independence, Chinese perception of the British Cháo, who are going to miss them? Who are going to hate them?

12) Colonial Competitors. France? United States?

13) Impact on neighbours?

14) By independence, size of economy and size of territory as compared to OTL? Depends upon the actual Chao states, and the national identity that forms - if you have ones that don't speak a semi-standard version of Chinese, they might see "China" as another historical empire that conquered them

Again, not horribly acquainted with the region's history, but I hope that helps
 
1) With the fall of Ming, Qing failed to take over, China broke up into several states, allowing the Brits to play "divide and conquer". ( you can think of other pods)
You can get a later breakup- something along these lines- but if you want a true Raj-like state then I suppose the essential precondition is for the British position to be unquestioned, which means an early POD.

3) According to the British habit of classifying the conquered people into Martial Races and non-martial ones, who are the Martial Races in China?
The martial race theory comes around post-Indian Mutiny, so it's highly likely that you butterfly it away. India seems to have a wider variety of ethnic groups to pick and choose from, though I emphasise the "seems". What you may get is an occupational rather than racial classification- something similar to the domestic recruitment practices where everybody involved professed to prefer farm workers to townsmen.

7) What would be British Colonisers' opium policy?
Probably the same as it was in the UK itself: if you want to sell, buy or use opium, you're free to do so.
 
I wonder whether they would use Shanghai as administrative capital, like how Calcutta was, rather than the old imperial capital (Delhi / Peking).

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Instead of British Raj, we have a British Cháo in China


2) Where is the capital of British Cháo, and who is(are) the puppet Emperor(s)?

Shanghai for a while, then Peking. As for the Emperor - if India is anything to go by, then at some point an excuse will be found to proclaim that the Mandate of Heaven has settled on Queen Victoria (or ATL equivalent).

3) According to the British habit of classifying the conquered people into Martial Races and non-martial ones, who are the Martial Races in China?

It's already been mentioned, but this was specific to India after the Mutiny. Chinese regiments will probably take pretty much anybody.

4) Would Mongolia, Tibet be under British China just like British Indian Burma?

If India is as well, then Tibet will be too (that said, if India and China are both in the Empire, then Britain will be ruling over half the world's population:eek:).

5) Classical Chinese or Spoken Chinese? Latinisation or Chinese Characters? Would the Lingua Franca of British China be English or one of the Chinese Dialects?

Chinese will be left alone - any standard will be whatever the Imperial civil service was using before the conquest (the British will very likely keep the Chinese civil service system going with only minor changes - we were big fans of it OTL and even reorganised the British civil service on Chinese lines, this is why senior British civil servants are still referred to as "mandarins" today). The bigger linuguistic change will be an encouragement of the use of English.

6) Would Chinese soldiers be used fight Britain's wars, just like Sikhs and Gujaratis?

Yes.

7) What would be British Colonisers' opium policy?

Legalise and tax.

8) Enforcing cash crops on the peasantry

Similar to India I suspect.

9) Resistance. Chinese Queen of Jhansi? Chinese Gandhi? Who?

ATL personages.

10) Would the famines be better or worse than OTL?

Different. One big improvement though is there are unlikely to be as many deaths in civil wars like the Tai Ping as any risings that do happen are likely to be suppressed much more quickly.

11) By the time of independence, Chinese perception of the British Cháo, who are going to miss them? Who are going to hate them?

Assuming demography is not destiny (this British empire is starting to look rather Chinese to me...) and independence happens then not many and most people, respectively.

12) Colonial Competitors. France? United States?;[/quote[

Japan and Russia, though see above note on the size on the Empire and whether such a monster can truly be said to have competitors worthy of the name.

13) Impact on neighbours?

They won't be very happy at all.

14) By independence, size of economy and size of territory as compared to OTL?

Economy and population somewhat larger, territory about the same. tibet might be outside China and Mongolia (or even Korea) inside it by that point though.
 
Instead of British Raj, we have a British Cháo in China

It can be both an AHC and a What If, please feel free to say whatever you want.

1) With the fall of Ming, Qing failed to take over, China broke up into several states, allowing the Brits to play "divide and conquer". ( you can think of other pods)

2) Where is the capital of British Cháo, and who is(are) the puppet Emperor(s)?

3) According to the British habit of classifying the conquered people into Martial Races and non-martial ones, who are the Martial Races in China?

4) Would Mongolia, Tibet be under British China just like British Indian Burma?

5) Classical Chinese or Spoken Chinese? Latinisation or Chinese Characters? Would the Lingua Franca of British China be English or one of the Chinese Dialects?

6) Would Chinese soldiers be used fight Britain's wars, just like Sikhs and Gujaratis?

7) What would be British Colonisers' opium policy?

8) Enforcing cash crops on the peasantry

9) Resistance. Chinese Queen of Jhansi? Chinese Gandhi? Who?

10) Would the famines be better or worse than OTL?

11) By the time of independence, Chinese perception of the British Cháo, who are going to miss them? Who are going to hate them?

12) Colonial Competitors. France? United States?

13) Impact on neighbours?

14) By independence, size of economy and size of territory as compared to OTL?

1) There is not much chance China being divided till 1800's after fall of Ming. Except fall of Han Dynasty, average warring period lasted some 60 - 100 years.
Best scenario will be Qing not conquering the China, then next dynasty would fall through internal pressure and break up. At this moment British Empire conquering. Even in this scenario it is almost impossible to British complete Chinese conquest.
- Unlike Indian princes, Chinese warlords wants to unite China and claim Mandate of Heaven.
- Chinese interior is far from coast and vast, while India is subcontinent.

2) It will be capital of the breaking Chinese Dynasty or whatever region British puppet dynasty ruler's power base is.

3) No comment.

4) Mongolia would certainly fall under Russian rule. IMO, Mongolia and Manchuria and East Turkistan will be Russians.
Tibet is mountainous and vast territory. There is no worth of taking it. If Mongolia is somehow managed to be independent when Britain takes China, then Mongolia will be like OTL Afghanistan - Great Game field between Russia and Britain. Then Tibet might be also fighting ground between Russia and Britain.

5) No comment.

6) Yes. IMO, Minorities like Hui or Miao people would be used more as military forces in order to control Han Chinese.

7). I agree with RPW. Legalize and tax.

8) Yes. same police as India.

9) Certainly not Gandhi. There will be ATL Sun Yat Sen. More likely armed resistance.

10) No comment.

11) If history is anything, I don't think Chinese would miss it. They most likely see it White British enslaving Chinese people.

12) For US it is too early to be competitor. Depending on what happened in Europe most likely candidate is France and Russia.

13) As neighbors you mean Korea, Vietnam and Mongolia, Manchuria, East Turkestan and Tibet? Japan and Philippine? India?
- Mongolia, Manchuria, Xinjiang. Tibet - Read No 5.
- Indochina is colonized by Britain including Thailand.
- Philippine is certainly colonized by Britain.
- Korea is Britain protectorate. So Korea will be developed more like Siam. They will be more modernized and developed country.
- Japan ? Early opening and early modernization ? Unlike OTL, their ambition will be contained.
- Taiwan and even Hainan could be independent, when British Rule ends.
14) When and how the Rule ends?
Territory is much smaller than OTL as I mentioned it won't include Inner Mongolia, Manchuria, Xinjiang and Tibet. Hainan could be independent.
 
- Philippine is certainly colonized by Britain.

Well, if this is 1800s after, the British will treat Philippines like Chile/South America. Independence is more likely and British leveraging monopoly business for protection. Rebellions in the Philippines vs Spain were common in 1800s especially right after the Napoleonic wars. It is actually easier and cheaper to manage Philippines that way instead of clearly just invading and colonizing it directly. I also see no reason to conquer the Philippines when you already got China. Spain and US conquered Philippines and used it as strategic point to trade with China.

Anything before 1800s, the Spanish can clearly beat the British as in OTL and the locals were still somewhat loyal Spain compared to 1800s or later.
 
Well, if this is 1800s after, the British will treat Philippines like Chile/South America. Independence is more likely and British leveraging monopoly business for protection. Rebellions in the Philippines vs Spain were common in 1800s especially right after the Napoleonic wars. It is actually easier and cheaper to manage Philippines that way instead of clearly just invading and colonizing it directly. I also see no reason to conquer the Philippines when you already got China. Spain and US conquered Philippines and used it as strategic point to trade with China.

Anything before 1800s, the Spanish can clearly beat the British as in OTL and the locals were still somewhat loyal Spain compared to 1800s or later.

I think the Colonization is more likely after 1800's.
I just thought that directly controlling Philippine, Malay, Indochina; Britain could turn South China sea into their lake. This means Britain will fully control East Asia-Indian Ocean sea route.
Also Philippine together with Formosa splits East and South Chinese Sea.
 
Off the top of my head I can see the British creating two of the greatest civil services in the world: the Indian Civil Service and the Chinese Civil Service. Tho is it more likely that the Chinese will just 'consume' the British as well?

In the end pages of the Two Georges I believe that China is labeled as a British protectorate.

I don't see Mongolia being part an British China, but serving more as a buffer state between Russia and British Asia like Afghanistan. Tibet would be governed from New Delhi.
 
I highly doubt that the British could hold both India and China. Even with the typical divide and conquer, rule through local elites method the British typically used there is still no guarantee that the British could take and hold that much territory especially if there are going to be facing French and Russian challengers to their control in both regions. Additionally I imagine that while the British can like take the Eastern, mostly Han Chinese territories relatively easily, taking control of Tibet, Mongolia, Manchuria, and the Western Uighur territories will significantly harder and they are likely to become buffer states against the Russians or whoever controls India.
 
I highly doubt that the British could hold both India and China. Even with the typical divide and conquer, rule through local elites method the British typically used there is still no guarantee that the British could take and hold that much territory especially if there are going to be facing French and Russian challengers to their control in both regions. Additionally I imagine that while the British can like take the Eastern, mostly Han Chinese territories relatively easily, taking control of Tibet, Mongolia, Manchuria, and the Western Uighur territories will significantly harder and they are likely to become buffer states against the Russians or whoever controls India.

I don't see why not. Firstly who is going to invade? Secondly, it actually adds to Britain's man power and revenue, so they would be in a stronger position to defend their territories, not a weaker one. "Overexpansion" is a term that's thrown about a lot but you have to see what the specific constraint would be.
 

Seraphiel

Banned
I don't see why not. Firstly who is going to invade? Secondly, it actually adds to Britain's man power and revenue, so they would be in a stronger position to defend their territories, not a weaker one. "Overexpansion" is a term that's thrown about a lot but you have to see what the specific constraint would be.

Of course the Chinese will be perfectly loyal subjects of Her Majesty's government, willing to die for the Crown.
 

SunDeep

Banned
I don't see why not. Firstly who is going to invade? Secondly, it actually adds to Britain's man power and revenue, so they would be in a stronger position to defend their territories, not a weaker one. "Overexpansion" is a term that's thrown about a lot but you have to see what the specific constraint would be.

Well, the OP did say 'Instead of British Raj, we have a British Cháo in China'. After all, to have a chance of succeeding in China, British are going to need to invest a lot of time, resources and military power, making it highly unlikely that they'd be able to bring the entirety of India under their control as well. In all likelihood, the best case scenario in India ITTL for the British would be something like the situation in South-East Asia. The British could well seize control of the wealthiest, most strategic regions and ports in India, but with their commitments elsewhere, it'd be impossible to prevent other European colonial powers from establishing and consolidating their own footholds in the region. TTL's Portuguese India could easily encompass the entirety of the Bombay Presidency, along with French India encompassing the entirety of the Madras Presidency, and the Dutch consolidating their authority over Ceylon. There could also be the potential for a few diplomatically astute leaders to maintain their independence in a similar manner to Thailand (Mysore, Hyderabad, Bengal, Assam and Burma would be good candidates for TTL's Indian analogue to Thailand).
 
I think the Colonization is more likely after 1800's.
I just thought that directly controlling Philippine, Malay, Indochina; Britain could turn South China sea into their lake. This means Britain will fully control East Asia-Indian Ocean sea route.
Also Philippine together with Formosa splits East and South Chinese Sea.

For Colonization, it is better to let Philippines go rather than stay there to conquer it. Philippines is not a threat when you have expel Spain.

Vietnam and Philippines are both quagmires that will siphon more resources than you can imagine for a lower value to the amount of resources you need to place for conquest. With the case of the Philippines, after dealing with Spain, you also have to deal with the colonists and the natives. 1762 British loss is still fresh which is mostly because of local resources during the British invasion. That means you have to satisfy the colonists and the locals which is independence. Philippines aint a backward Asian nation that you can just shove around in 1800s. It was a western/latin nation by this time. When you have cheaper option than putting boots and keep loosing troops, as a leader you take the cheaper and easier option especially when you experienced invading Philippines a couple of decades back.
 
Top