Bourbons flee to the New World following Napoleons invasion of Spain. Names for a resulting Empire?

Plus Paraguayan and Chileans, as both those groups were purposeful differentiate themselves of the inhabitants of the Virreinos.


I doubt it, the resentment against the Penisulares, as their actions was constantly against the local populations interest, higher taxes that was mostly illegally appropriated by the Peninsular Bureaucrats, prohibition of all industry endevour so the Americas was complete dependent of Spain for elaborated products, the exclusion of all the government positions, outside the military, for the local population, among other created a lot of resentment against the Spanish in general, and the crown in Particular.
I still could see La plata, Chile and Paraguay declaring independence, and I could see Peru and Nueva Granada demanding a King, distinct of the Spanish emperor, for themselves.

I think this can be solved relatively easily. With a Spanish powerbase in Mexico City or Havana, and with a Spanish Crown greatly weakened, a forward thinking king might decide (or be forced) to give criollos more economic rights (which would please New Granada), and might decide to end extreme mercantilism in order to manage and get more industrial goods from England (which would please La Plata). Those two things alone might, I think, diffuse the tension between peninsulares (which would rapidly dwindle in number if Spain no longer controls, well, Spain) and criollos, with the inevitability of a criollo king sealing the deal.

If all of this happens due to a more successful Napoleon or whatnot exiling the Spanish monarchy permanently, England might also step in to try and have an ally to balance against the Continental System and the United States.
 
One thing that could happen would be to use an old name from the early colonial period

The Province of Tierra Firme

So we have the Empire of Tierra Firme which gets shortened to Firme colloquially?

I doubt this would happen because Tierra Firme would just mean "dry land", and I don't think a country would call itself Firm. I think Empire of the Indies is the most likely choice, with Ultramar being a possible contender.
 
I doubt this would happen because Tierra Firme would just mean "dry land", and I don't think a country would call itself Firm. I think Empire of the Indies is the most likely choice, with Ultramar being a possible contender.

Well they literally called the Latin American colonies Tierra Firme until they were divided into New Spain and Peru in OTL.

In English it was called the Spanish Main and Spaniards also colloquially adopted this as El Main... so that’s another possibility
 
Well they literally called the Latin American colonies Tierra Firme until they were divided into New Spain and Peru in OTL.

In English it was called the Spanish Main and Spaniards also colloquially adopted this as El Main... so that’s another possibility

The thing is that there's a different situation there, Tierra Firme got named that because for a while the Spanish thought it was just islands out there. It wouldn't make much sense to call the land Tierra Firme when they're already aware of what they owned.

Plus, AFAIK Tierra Firme only really referred to OTL coastal Colombia (which is why in the wikipedia page the capital is cited as being Santa María la Antigua del Darién) so expanding it to what would be the largest country in the world wouldn't make sense IMO.
 
I think this can be solved relatively easily. With a Spanish powerbase in Mexico City or Havana, and with a Spanish Crown greatly weakened, a forward thinking king might decide (or be forced) to give criollos more economic rights (which would please New Granada), and might decide to end extreme mercantilism in order to manage and get more industrial goods from England (which would please La Plata). Those two things alone might, I think, diffuse the tension between peninsulares (which would rapidly dwindle in number if Spain no longer controls, well, Spain) and criollos, with the inevitability of a criollo king sealing the deal.

If all of this happens due to a more successful Napoleon or whatnot exiling the Spanish monarchy permanently, England might also step in to try and have an ally to balance against the Continental System and the United States.
Independentism already exist and Miranda already was pushing the plans would be the first republic of colombia thus new granada would take that as the excuse we use OTL, Peru might goes the wail but others have already too much hate to the spanish and would need just a bad spark and direct meddling in the americas would be that.

At best we could get a full 'new spain' in Peru as a trully new spain if they try to pull a brazil, or more lucky in Mexico if Hidalgo is delayed, people forgot how incompetent and toxic was Fernindand VII, hape Joseph being more decisive the bourbons would have never goes back to spain.
 
Independentism already exist and Miranda already was pushing the plans would be the first republic of colombia thus new granada would take that as the excuse we use OTL, Peru might goes the wail but others have already too much hate to the spanish and would need just a bad spark and direct meddling in the americas would be that.

I don't think there's that much hatred for Spain. Miranda was a... weird character, which is one of the reasons he pushed so hard for Latin American independence, but I don't htink most criollo people would really risk it all on an independentist journey if they have equal rights with Spanish-born and the ability to trade.

I'm sure that if Spain just tried to go in without major changes massive revolts might occur, but they might just pull it off. The 1750s also saw massive (even more popular) revolts against Spain - the comuneros in New Granada and Paraguay and Tupac Amarú's revolt in Perú - yet it took 60 years until full independence.
 
I don't think there's that much hatred for Spain. Miranda was a... weird character, which is one of the reasons he pushed so hard for Latin American independence, but I don't htink most criollo people would really risk it all on an independentist journey if they have equal rights with Spanish-born and the ability to trade.
Unique, almost a bless for us colombians(and he was a venezuelan of all people...we never got real heroes beside santander) and he was pushing a popular feeling in the era? remember Llorente Flower Vase? that would still happen.

I'm sure that if Spain just tried to go in without major changes massive revolts might occur, but they might just pull it off. The 1750s also saw massive (even more popular) revolts against Spain - the comuneros in New Granada and Paraguay and Tupac Amarú's revolt in Perú - yet it took 60 years until full independence.
Those were first seeds, like early US discontent.
 
Unique, almost a bless for us colombians(and he was a venezuelan of all people...we never got real heroes beside santander) and he was pushing a popular feeling in the era? remember Llorente Flower Vase? that would still happen.

Yeah, the thing is those native New Granadan heroes like Torres or Nariño were basically interested in political representation and trade - and, if the King lived in Latin America and granted them some sort of Assembly that allowed themselves to make some decisions independent of the Viceroy, their issues would probably be almost entirely satisfied.

Those were first seeds, like early US discontent.

I disagree for two reasons. Firstly, the 1750s revolts were mostly middle-class businesses, mostly fought by natives and Mestizo peasants, while the 1810s revolts were almost entirely a criollo revolt that kept many of the preexisting casta structure conditions, and second, because while US discontent started all of 10 years before the Declaration of Independence, the Paraguayan Comuneros were crushed 90 years before Bolívar went around creating countries, while Tupac Amarú and the Neogranadine comuneros were crushed 30-odd years (a full generation) before the independence of Latin America.
 
Possible POD that ultimately leads to this: No peace between Spain and France during the War of the Pyrenees that results in a temporary Franco-Spanish alliance? Then a few years later France fully invades Spain, Charles IV and his youngest son Francisco flee to the colonies with the queen and Godoy but his eldest two sons Ferdinand and Carlos are captured by the French.

So Francisco grows up in the Americas and when his father dies during the Napoleonic Wars, the colonies look to him since Ferdinand and Carlos are still French prisoners.

Then when the wars end, Ferdinand tries to return everything to absolutist rule and subjugate the colonies. They refuse to go back to the status quo and raise Francisco up as Emperor of Ultramar, as he has little memory of his brothers in this TL and has been treated as de facto ruler in the colonies since his father died.

Francisco has his OTL moderate liberal streak and is able to balance the various factions in the Empire.
 
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