Bouncing Ideas off of you guys

Alright, so I've had this idea lately, for a really cool TL. But, I have this problem of making it completely take form. Alright, so, I want to create two wank(ish) nations, with PODs around the 14th century, but nations that aren't any OTL ones, and do not resemble (very much) any OTL ones.

My plan is to have a World War lasting from 1925 to 1953 (keep in mind the POD before commenting on how plausible that is). This thread isn't to talk about that idea in and of itself, but if this thread is successful I might make such a thread. Now, I have a few ideas for some nations, please comment on plausibility and also submit your own ideas for strange nations.

Here's the first idea I will present: A group of Vikings, (preferably still Pagan) once losing contact with Europe, join with a local Native American tribe, and something of a mishmash culture develops. If I am correct (though probably not), this could result in a Native American (with Viking influence) tribe that is immune to most of Europe's diseases when the Europeans come over in a similar to OTL time frame. Once a lot of people start dying, said tribe could proclaim themselves "Protector of the Continent and It's Peoples" or something to that effect, and create a continent dominating country by the time of the Great War ITTL (1925-1953).

Comments? Ideas? Bleh? Shoot myself?
 
Well, those ideas are random. A 28 year industrialized war seems ASB, but maybe I'm just trapped in a modern mindset.

Regarding the Viking idea, it seems unlikely that they would still be pagans. And unlikely that they would rule the continent so easily. However, they might provide an iron-age culture that rules the East Coast of the USA by ships, and perhaps accelerates the Aztecs into bronze or iron age tech.
 
Well, those ideas are random. A 28 year industrialized war seems ASB, but maybe I'm just trapped in a modern mindset.
Yes, I will say that there will be little (if any at all) highly portable rapid firing guns. Tanks might be simply armored cars that fire machine guns and have a flamethrower. Airplanes would be lacking in the amount of ordinance they would have OTL, but would probably have longer range.

Regarding the Viking idea, it seems unlikely that they would still be pagans. And unlikely that they would rule the continent so easily. However, they might provide an iron-age culture that rules the East Coast of the USA by ships, and perhaps accelerates the Aztecs into bronze or iron age tech.
That would be the point, as they wouldn't be Vikings. They wouldn't exactly be Natives, either. They'd be... something else entirely. But, what do you think of the concept that said new group would be immune to a lot of the European diseases that devastated the continent OTL? In my mind, it would seem their mixed heritage would allow them to get along well (early on, anyways) with both Native tribes and European settlers.
 

Michael Busch

Four thoughts:

1. You must justify the Norse colony in Newfoundland and the trading posts on the mainland becoming permanent and prosperous settlements. That means some changes to their interactions with the skrælingar earlier than the 14th century - sometime in the 1000's probably, as a formal POD. Particularly, to have any chance of a high-density (presumably agricultural) society surviving past ~1400, you will need them to have spread far south of their OTL range well before that.

2. The immunity argument has some validity - assuming that the Vikings carried enough smallpox etc. to persist in the local population. That means they would kill off many people themselves in the 1000-1100 timeframe.

3. Permanent Norse settlements in the new world will motivate rapid improvements in ship design across the North Atlantic. If Greenland still becomes uninhabitable ~1400, there will still be communication between ?Vinland? and Iceland and thus to Europe. As an example: there will be a bishop on the far side of the Atlantic well before the reformation (if you still have something similar happen). The distance means that Catholicism in the new world will have its own peculiarities, but it will be there.

4. I like this POD, but it has to be handled correctly. Until you decide on an outline of all of the intervening time, it seems rather silly to say that you will have a Great War at some particular time ~900 years later. But I'm a stickler when it comes to butterflies.
 
One question:Did the Vikings even have resistance to the diseases the Europeans brought over IOTL? Is there any cases of Vikings with smallpox immunity?
 
1. You must justify the Norse colony in Newfoundland and the trading posts on the mainland becoming permanent and prosperous settlements. That means some changes to their interactions with the skrælingar earlier than the 14th century - sometime in the 1000's probably, as a formal POD. Particularly, to have any chance of a high-density (presumably agricultural) society surviving past ~1400, you will need them to have spread far south of their OTL range well before that.
Well, you see, that was the plan. Some Vikings get left behind, and end up in an Indian tribe. There are enough Vikings that their natural immunity to afflictions their ancestors may have suffered, and also that their effect on said tribe won't be nil.
2. The immunity argument has some validity - assuming that the Vikings carried enough smallpox etc. to persist in the local population. That means they would kill off many people themselves in the 1000-1100 timeframe.
This could also work. An earlier die off of multiple Native Tribes, but without European Conquistadors, they can recover.
3. Permanent Norse settlements in the new world will motivate rapid improvements in ship design across the North Atlantic. If Greenland still becomes uninhabitable ~1400, there will still be communication between ?Vinland? and Iceland and thus to Europe. As an example: there will be a bishop on the far side of the Atlantic well before the reformation (if you still have something similar happen). The distance means that Catholicism in the new world will have its own peculiarities, but it will be there.
As said before, this wouldn't be a Viking colony, but rather a Viking influenced, powerful tribe.
4. I like this POD, but it has to be handled correctly. Until you decide on an outline of all of the intervening time, it seems rather silly to say that you will have a Great War at some particular time ~900 years later. But I'm a stickler when it comes to butterflies.
Just trying to explain where the original idea came from, was all. I wanted two nations unlike anything we've seen OTL.

Finally, yes, the Viking-Native tribe would move south. Were the Iroquois around at this time? As for the reformation, well, I need something to spark a fight between the Viking-Natives and the Europeans. :D Once they show up (probably early 1500s, I think, as Columbus is butterflied), they will probably be ahead of said tribe, but a few fights and they'll catch up quite nicely.

Just imagine, early guns mixed with Native guerilla tactics. It's like an early version of SWAT! :D On a side note, how likely is it that this group also has Chinese influence (much later, think 1700s) and the Chinese kind of become their "Minority Majority" like maybe African Americans or Hispanic Americans are today.
 
Sounds like an interesting idea. It is, of course, fictional to such a degree that it's hard to say much more than "you initial sketch sounds consistent".

I would like to mention one point: Keep in mind that other peoples/countries/institutuons/individuals may be lucky as well. Even if many of them get a huge setback they can still recover; in both technological and social-cultural ways, this can happen quite fast via imitation. Don't forget about the other thousands of peoples on the planet when you are focussing on you Amerivikings.
 
One question:Did the Vikings even have resistance to the diseases the Europeans brought over IOTL? Is there any cases of Vikings with smallpox immunity?

For the Vikings to transfer an immunity to the local populace...it's rather far-fetched, I believe. Far more likely that immunity would be lost. To immunise the entire Americas before regular contact with Europeans will essentially take the introduction of smallpox, rather than some genetic ability to resist.

Personally I'd also raise questions about whether a group, even a large group, of Vikings in the Americas post-1000 AD could spread out enough to control the entire continent by 1500. It would take some extremely capable diplomacy and almost a state-sponsored policy of breeding with natives who haven't previously acquired Norse blood. It's just a little too contrived for me.

Then again, I generally oppose TLs which feature early colonisation of the Americas, so I may be biased. They're just a little too...clutching at straws, for my liking.
 
I think it sounds interesting, but I doubt that the viking culture would survive that intact, probably some traces, but not the dominant part. Still sounds cool.
 
Maybe the Vikings could inspire some better use of available technology?
Afterall the Aztecs had wheels, the Mayans had books, and their was some metal working across North America, just not very used. So viking tech would inspire developpement. Oh and I read somewhere they found that some Inuit had traded with the vikings for chainmail, since they found a Inuit burial with a chainmail shirt, if that helps in any way.
 
The vikings would be pagan, the viking age came to a close when christianiti happend. Also the Norse would be lese imunne to european diseases due to the fact that ther weren really anny viking citys to breead imunety.
 

Michael Busch

The Vikings would be pagan, the Viking age came to a close when Christianity happened.

We are guilty of a misnomer here. We probably should be calling the OTL settlements in Greenland Norse, rather than Viking. Technically, the Vikings were the initial settlers (in the early 1000's) but the end of the Viking age is usually set just after that point. Raiding activity in Europe stopped in the 1100's and Christianity really took hold in Scandinavia at about the same time.

The Norse settlements in Greenland were Catholic by the early 12th century - although I do not know their degree of piety. There was a bishop's seat at Garðar in Greeland from the early 1100's until the mid-to-late 1300's, according to Wikipedia.

Also the Norse would be less immune to European diseases due to the fact that there weren't really any Viking cities to breed immunity.
They don't need to be immune to the diseases to carry them - given large enough settlement, some plague-carrying rats and small-pox carrying humans will show up. You do need denser population than a hunter-gather society to keep smallpox going in a big way, but not a city.

randomideaguy said:
Some Vikings get left behind, and end up in an Indian tribe.

I don't think the 'Norse get stuck in America' line works that well: given a colony big enough to be self-supporting and provide the biological impact you want, there will be enough sailors and shipwrights to keep the skills to build their own ships. That means trade to Greenland & Iceland keeps on going - initially, probably trade in timber and skins for metal and manufactured goods.
 
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I don't think the 'Norse get stuck in America' line works that well: given a colony big enough to be self-supporting and provide the biological impact you want, there will be enough sailors and shipwrights to keep the skills to build their own ships. That means trade to Greenland & Iceland keeps on going - initially, probably trade in timber and skins for metal and manufactured goods.
It does not work at all. Any North American colony has to be set up from Greenland and given that small population there any attempt will fizzle out, as it did on OTL. In addition the Norse were xenophobic to the point of killing natives to find out what colour their blood was. The are not going to be transferring technology to Amerindians of any cilvisation.

I propose that Vikinig colonisation of North America goes on the list of Operation Sea Lion list of banned AHs.
 

Hendryk

Banned
Alright, so I've had this idea lately, for a really cool TL. But, I have this problem of making it completely take form. Alright, so, I want to create two wank(ish) nations, with PODs around the 14th century, but nations that aren't any OTL ones, and do not resemble (very much) any OTL ones.

My plan is to have a World War lasting from 1925 to 1953 (keep in mind the POD before commenting on how plausible that is).
A POD in the 14th century, a long industrial war in the 20th century... Sounds like The Years of Rice and Salt.

"Protector of the Continent and It's Peoples"
As opposed to "Protector of the Continent and its Peoples"?
 

Michael Busch

I propose that Viking colonization of North America goes on the list of Operation Sea Lion list of banned AHs.

That seems a bit harsh to me. There are a couple of recorded cases in OTL of ships that sailed direct from Vinland to Iceland, so you don't necessarily need to have Greenland as an intermediary once you know where you are going. Their xenophobia would need to be moderated somewhat - perhaps a few well-educated and eloquent clergy would help.

Either way, it's not going to be a massive Norse empire across the Americas by the 14th century, but how are permanent settlements around say Nova Scotia and New Brunswick out of the question?
 
Either way, it's not going to be a massive Norse empire across the Americas by the 14th century, but how are permanent settlements around say Nova Scotia and New Brunswick out of the question?
I already told you guys, it wasn't going to be a massive empire until nearly the 20th century :mad:
 
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