Born a King; The Life and Times of John the Posthumous
- Thread starter Space Oddity
- Start date
Not "Make England great again"?
I'm not entirely sure what Norfolk and Lancaster have done. Made their way to London in response to the call to discuss the kingdom's welfare?
I look forward to seeing how the rebellion goes wrong. Fallings out between the rebels? Competence from one of Edward II's supporters (expecting it from the king himself is probably too much), or perhaps luck.
Assuming he arrives as OTL, wait for Thomas of Woodstock to show up.
"England is going to win again! We are going to have so much winning! We are going to build a big fleet--and France is going to pay for it!"
This was about how things ran IOTL when the coup happened. Edward had blown an INCREDIBLE amount of political capital.
A wooden wall, you might say.
I suspect the king is going to be saved more by the incompetence of his enemies than by his own talents. And popular or not, overthrowing a crowned monarch with clear right of succession just isn't something most of the British ruling classes will take lightly.
Quibble - you have 1200s rather than 1300s in the second to last story post.
A wooden wall, you might say.
I suspect the king is going to be saved more by the incompetence of his enemies than by his own talents. And popular or not, overthrowing a crowned monarch with clear right of succession just isn't something most of the British ruling classes will take lightly.
Quibble - you have 1200s rather than 1300s in the second to last story post.
Corrected--inverted the numbers there.
And--really, it's worth noting that IOTL, Isabella and Mortimer had people declaring Edward a saint two years after his death.
I find this TL amusing. I hope there will be bigger divergence later on - with Jean de France becoming perhaps a second Iron King or an equivalent to Louis XI the Spider, depending on his temper being flamboyant and imperious or more schemey and landgrabby. IOTL the first Valois lost a lot of crown authority due to being poor kings and being disliked from their vassals. This will certainly not be the case ITTL.
Still, I feel a little bit of pity for Philippe le Long, who was a very skilled man who would have been as capable a king as his father had he lived longer and been luckier.
In the meantime, I will suscribe to this TL and hope for the "Montjoie ! Saint-Denis" to fly higher and further than IOTL.
Still, I feel a little bit of pity for Philippe le Long, who was a very skilled man who would have been as capable a king as his father had he lived longer and been luckier.
In the meantime, I will suscribe to this TL and hope for the "Montjoie ! Saint-Denis" to fly higher and further than IOTL.
Seriously?Edward himself probably had more than a hundred guards at his disposal and he just fled because a hundred guys are going after him?Talk about being pathetic.
Which is why the first thing he should do would be to send whatever guy he had at his disposal against this group.You let a hundred guys march on the capital and let their numbers swell?That's just stupid.
At which point the mobs in London tear him apart, like happened with poor Stapledon.
Edward was not exactly overwhelmingly popular with anyone at this point. Again, he had people who were supposed to be on guard against this sort of thing.
They somehow failed to send any men against Edmund.
POSTSCRIPT--Also, this hardly an age of rapid response. Edward is only going to discover that Edmund and pals have arrived when he is told by someone who knows about it, which means they are going to have to travel from around where the Earl of Kent arrived to London. Then he's going to have to send men out to notify other men to do things.
Really, it's sort of darkly amusing to read all the times during the Hundred Years War where France and England were essentially running around trying to stop things that had already happened.
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1328-9: England
1328-9: SORS IMMANIS ET INANIS, ROTA TU VOLUBILIS STATUS MALUS...
"As the rebels hunted for them, Edward and his party succeeded in confusing them largely through the simple measure of being confused themselves. On leaving London, Edward had planned for them to head en masse for Ireland to raise an army there. However shortly after leaving, the Prince of Wales successfully convinced his father to allow him and some of his closest companions (among them Gilbert Despenser, Hugh the Younger's second son) to go to Hainaut to get assistance from the Prince's father-in-law. Edward, by all later accounts searching desperately for anything that might constitute a solution, agreed to this, and then made for Wales with Hugh the Younger with the idea of getting passage to Ireland. At this point, he had yet another change of mind, and headed to Pontefract to be reunited with his young wife, leaving Hugh the Younger to head to Wales by himself. None of this was obvious to the rebels until afterwards, leaving them to chase a variety of leads to, initially, little effect. By the time they were aware that the King had headed north, he was already ensconced in Pontefract, while the Prince had reached Hainaut and immediately began recruiting a small army from veterans of the recent French campaign in Flanders.
"Hugh the Younger's journey proved less productive--turned back by bad weather, he was apprehended in Cardiff by his brother-in-law, and longtime rival Hugh de Audley[1], who was among the first to join the rising. Audley, who seems to have joined the zealousness of a convert with the jealousy of a slighted lover[2], had Hugh hanged then and there, proclaiming that 'it was right and proper that so odious a man should die forwith', following which he had the body dismembered, the pieces fed to hounds, and the head sent first to Winchester[3] and then to London 'so all may know and rejoice that he is dead'. Shortly thereafter, Roger Mortimer captured Bristol where the Earl of Winchester had attempted to maintain a loyalist garrison for a later counterattack. The Earl and his eldest grandson were among those captured. Marched back, the the pair reportedly had the misfortune to see the head of the man they knew as 'son' and 'father' respectively being displayed in Winchester. Reportedly Mortimer haughtily declared 'see now what has become of all your pomp'. The Despensers' response was to weep bitterly, appearing so wretched, Froissart wrote, 'that even those who had hated them now pitied them'. It was enough to provoke more than a few second thoughts amongst the rebellion's sympathisers.
"And the new regime was giving people more reasons to question it. When the Earl of Kent had called the so-called Great Council together, its stated purpose was to discuss England's welfare and 'set the nation at right again'. Edmund was a simple man, and likely meant what he said. However it rapidly became clear that Kent's puppet-masters were following their own radical agenda with Bishop Orleton increasingly leading the assembly to the subject of deposition. Even worse, loyalists besides the Despensers were being caught in the net--Edmund Fitzalan, the Earl of Arundel, and his son Richard[4] were both apprehended by their old enemy Lord Cherleton and brought to London, and serious plans were made to attaint them as traitors. When the Archbishop of York[5] asked bluntly how a man loyal to his king could be a traitor, Bishop Charleton[6] shouted at him to remain silent and remember what happened to Walter Stapledon. The clear threat of violence aimed at noblemen and clergy was disheartening--Henry Wryneck[7] reportedly noted that it was becoming clear that the rebels wished them to exchange "a bad ruler for a worse one". As opposed to his young cousin, the Earl of Lancaster was no fool. Neither was Edmund's elder brother Thomas of Norfolk. They had gone along with the rebellion when it appeared to be in their interests, quite possibly earlier then they later admitted, but now it seemed likely to turn on them.
"Meanwhile, King Edward remained in Pontefract with his wife and remaining children, despite efforts to capture him. An attempt to raise a small force to besiege the castle ended when an army of Scots started massing on the border[8]--afterwards, the new regime simply did not have the loyalty of the northern Border lords to allow such a force. Throughout it all he remained a rather unpleasant ghost at the feast for the rebels. With their authority in danger of unraveling completely, Orleton and Mortimer appeared to have decided to force the issue. The Bishop regaled the assembled lords with a list of Edward's crimes and stated, bluntly, that the only hope the kingdom would have for peace would be to see him deposed. The Archbishop of York, once again the unwanted voice of protest, asked who it was that Orleton wished to see crowned in Edward's place. What happened next proved to be one of the turning points of the rebellion. The Bishop of Worcester paused, looked over the crowd--and then simply stopped his speech. He then called some of his supporters to him, whispered some instructions, and attempted to move on as if he had not heard the question. As people tried to understand this strange behavior, they realized that the Earls of Lancaster, Norfolk and Kent were no longer in attendance.
"This was the beginning of the end for the rebellion. A few days later, it became known that the Prince of Wales had landed at the mouth of the Orwell[9] with a small force of his own, which, mirroring his uncle's earlier actions, swelled as he marched into the country. What little confidence remained in the 'Great Council' died when it was learned that Oliver Ingham, the King's new Seneschal in Aquitaine had overrun Saintoge and from there invested a few fortresses in the Agenais[10]--to which Mortimer had it seemed sent his word of promise to the Regent that once matters were settled, all would be returned, and fine paid[11]. Indeed, Mortimer had even rather embarrassingly served with the Count of Valois in the previous invasion of Aquitaine. The lord's protestations of English loyalty were starting to ring very hollow. Mortimer responded all this by fleeing, something other outspoken rebels such as Orleton and the Charletons ultimately followed his example in. By the time the Prince arrived in London, the rebel government that had held it for the last few months had collapsed. While the former ringleaders remained holed up in their own little strongholds, the Earl of Kent's Rising was finished..."
This Tumultuous Age: The Revolts and Upheavals of the 14th Century, Elizabeth Eckermann (1976)
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[1] Audley and Despenser were both husbands to de Clare sisters, making them joint heirs in the property of the Earldom of Gloucester, and their children grandchildren of Edward I. Needless to say, there were property disputes.
[2] Audley was a former favorite of Edward II. In fact his wife was Piers Gaveston's widow. Enjoy the medieval creepiness.
[3] This is modeled after the OTL death of his father, Hugh the Elder. IOTL, Hugh the Younger was hanged, reportedly from a ladder, and then dismembered, and by some reports, castrated, while still conscious. MORE medieval creepiness.
[4] IOTL, Edmund was executed during Isabella's invasion. Richard was later exiled by the new regime, though he made a comeback.
[5] William Melton, another dedicated Edward II supporter.
[6] Thomas Charleton, Bishop of Hereford, and brother to the Lord Cherleton. Yes, their peerage title is a misspelling of their name. Deal with it.
[7] Henry, 3rd Earl of Lancaster again. Reportedly, this nickname was from a medical condition. While Lancaster's skill as a politician are debatable, his skills as a survivor are not--he survived multiple regime changes during Edward II and III's reigns, frequently while plotting against said regimes.
[8] This will be explained in a later installment, though it should be noted Robert Bruce managed one last invasion of England during the coup IOTL.
[9] Prince Edward has managed to mimic his mother's point of arrival IOTL.
[10] Astonishingly enough, this happened IOTL.
[11] And yes, this was exactly what Isabella and Mortimer did in response. "New boss, old boss" time.
"As the rebels hunted for them, Edward and his party succeeded in confusing them largely through the simple measure of being confused themselves. On leaving London, Edward had planned for them to head en masse for Ireland to raise an army there. However shortly after leaving, the Prince of Wales successfully convinced his father to allow him and some of his closest companions (among them Gilbert Despenser, Hugh the Younger's second son) to go to Hainaut to get assistance from the Prince's father-in-law. Edward, by all later accounts searching desperately for anything that might constitute a solution, agreed to this, and then made for Wales with Hugh the Younger with the idea of getting passage to Ireland. At this point, he had yet another change of mind, and headed to Pontefract to be reunited with his young wife, leaving Hugh the Younger to head to Wales by himself. None of this was obvious to the rebels until afterwards, leaving them to chase a variety of leads to, initially, little effect. By the time they were aware that the King had headed north, he was already ensconced in Pontefract, while the Prince had reached Hainaut and immediately began recruiting a small army from veterans of the recent French campaign in Flanders.
"Hugh the Younger's journey proved less productive--turned back by bad weather, he was apprehended in Cardiff by his brother-in-law, and longtime rival Hugh de Audley[1], who was among the first to join the rising. Audley, who seems to have joined the zealousness of a convert with the jealousy of a slighted lover[2], had Hugh hanged then and there, proclaiming that 'it was right and proper that so odious a man should die forwith', following which he had the body dismembered, the pieces fed to hounds, and the head sent first to Winchester[3] and then to London 'so all may know and rejoice that he is dead'. Shortly thereafter, Roger Mortimer captured Bristol where the Earl of Winchester had attempted to maintain a loyalist garrison for a later counterattack. The Earl and his eldest grandson were among those captured. Marched back, the the pair reportedly had the misfortune to see the head of the man they knew as 'son' and 'father' respectively being displayed in Winchester. Reportedly Mortimer haughtily declared 'see now what has become of all your pomp'. The Despensers' response was to weep bitterly, appearing so wretched, Froissart wrote, 'that even those who had hated them now pitied them'. It was enough to provoke more than a few second thoughts amongst the rebellion's sympathisers.
"And the new regime was giving people more reasons to question it. When the Earl of Kent had called the so-called Great Council together, its stated purpose was to discuss England's welfare and 'set the nation at right again'. Edmund was a simple man, and likely meant what he said. However it rapidly became clear that Kent's puppet-masters were following their own radical agenda with Bishop Orleton increasingly leading the assembly to the subject of deposition. Even worse, loyalists besides the Despensers were being caught in the net--Edmund Fitzalan, the Earl of Arundel, and his son Richard[4] were both apprehended by their old enemy Lord Cherleton and brought to London, and serious plans were made to attaint them as traitors. When the Archbishop of York[5] asked bluntly how a man loyal to his king could be a traitor, Bishop Charleton[6] shouted at him to remain silent and remember what happened to Walter Stapledon. The clear threat of violence aimed at noblemen and clergy was disheartening--Henry Wryneck[7] reportedly noted that it was becoming clear that the rebels wished them to exchange "a bad ruler for a worse one". As opposed to his young cousin, the Earl of Lancaster was no fool. Neither was Edmund's elder brother Thomas of Norfolk. They had gone along with the rebellion when it appeared to be in their interests, quite possibly earlier then they later admitted, but now it seemed likely to turn on them.
"Meanwhile, King Edward remained in Pontefract with his wife and remaining children, despite efforts to capture him. An attempt to raise a small force to besiege the castle ended when an army of Scots started massing on the border[8]--afterwards, the new regime simply did not have the loyalty of the northern Border lords to allow such a force. Throughout it all he remained a rather unpleasant ghost at the feast for the rebels. With their authority in danger of unraveling completely, Orleton and Mortimer appeared to have decided to force the issue. The Bishop regaled the assembled lords with a list of Edward's crimes and stated, bluntly, that the only hope the kingdom would have for peace would be to see him deposed. The Archbishop of York, once again the unwanted voice of protest, asked who it was that Orleton wished to see crowned in Edward's place. What happened next proved to be one of the turning points of the rebellion. The Bishop of Worcester paused, looked over the crowd--and then simply stopped his speech. He then called some of his supporters to him, whispered some instructions, and attempted to move on as if he had not heard the question. As people tried to understand this strange behavior, they realized that the Earls of Lancaster, Norfolk and Kent were no longer in attendance.
"This was the beginning of the end for the rebellion. A few days later, it became known that the Prince of Wales had landed at the mouth of the Orwell[9] with a small force of his own, which, mirroring his uncle's earlier actions, swelled as he marched into the country. What little confidence remained in the 'Great Council' died when it was learned that Oliver Ingham, the King's new Seneschal in Aquitaine had overrun Saintoge and from there invested a few fortresses in the Agenais[10]--to which Mortimer had it seemed sent his word of promise to the Regent that once matters were settled, all would be returned, and fine paid[11]. Indeed, Mortimer had even rather embarrassingly served with the Count of Valois in the previous invasion of Aquitaine. The lord's protestations of English loyalty were starting to ring very hollow. Mortimer responded all this by fleeing, something other outspoken rebels such as Orleton and the Charletons ultimately followed his example in. By the time the Prince arrived in London, the rebel government that had held it for the last few months had collapsed. While the former ringleaders remained holed up in their own little strongholds, the Earl of Kent's Rising was finished..."
This Tumultuous Age: The Revolts and Upheavals of the 14th Century, Elizabeth Eckermann (1976)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] Audley and Despenser were both husbands to de Clare sisters, making them joint heirs in the property of the Earldom of Gloucester, and their children grandchildren of Edward I. Needless to say, there were property disputes.
[2] Audley was a former favorite of Edward II. In fact his wife was Piers Gaveston's widow. Enjoy the medieval creepiness.
[3] This is modeled after the OTL death of his father, Hugh the Elder. IOTL, Hugh the Younger was hanged, reportedly from a ladder, and then dismembered, and by some reports, castrated, while still conscious. MORE medieval creepiness.
[4] IOTL, Edmund was executed during Isabella's invasion. Richard was later exiled by the new regime, though he made a comeback.
[5] William Melton, another dedicated Edward II supporter.
[6] Thomas Charleton, Bishop of Hereford, and brother to the Lord Cherleton. Yes, their peerage title is a misspelling of their name. Deal with it.
[7] Henry, 3rd Earl of Lancaster again. Reportedly, this nickname was from a medical condition. While Lancaster's skill as a politician are debatable, his skills as a survivor are not--he survived multiple regime changes during Edward II and III's reigns, frequently while plotting against said regimes.
[8] This will be explained in a later installment, though it should be noted Robert Bruce managed one last invasion of England during the coup IOTL.
[9] Prince Edward has managed to mimic his mother's point of arrival IOTL.
[10] Astonishingly enough, this happened IOTL.
[11] And yes, this was exactly what Isabella and Mortimer did in response. "New boss, old boss" time.
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I think there's a typo in this update. Edmund Fitzalan and his son Richard are mentioned in the main text while Edward and Richard are mentioned in the appropriate footnote.
Quite a lot of action here. The rebellion seems to be doomed due to a combination of its disunion, the competence of the Prince of Wales and the threat of the Scots. Not that I expect its probably imminent failure to lead to a more peaceful realm.
Quite a lot of action here. The rebellion seems to be doomed due to a combination of its disunion, the competence of the Prince of Wales and the threat of the Scots. Not that I expect its probably imminent failure to lead to a more peaceful realm.
If the Prince of Wales is OTL Edward III, Edward II will at least have a competent Military Man at his side...
Well, remember, he's a man of over sixty being held in the not-nice parts of the Tower.
Anyway--next installment--SCOTLAND!