Born a King; The Life and Times of John the Posthumous
- Thread starter Space Oddity
- Start date
John hasn't exactly been in a situation where he greatly alters things yet. The biggest change, ironically, is probably Edward II deciding to push dodging homage for as long as he could, which likely resulted in Isabelle's death, but even then it's pretty subtle.
And now, a picture of the Battle of Tournai, showing the legendary capture of Zannekin.
Resemblance to the actual Battle of Tournai not guaranteed.
Resemblance to the actual Battle of Tournai not guaranteed.
So, how long will it be before Louis manages to mess up again?
I wonder what consequences will follow from a dead rather than wounded Count of Boulogne.
Why do I suspect that seeing an easy victory like that might make young King John overconfident about the outcome of future battles he might lead?
I wonder what consequences will follow from a dead rather than wounded Count of Boulogne.
Why do I suspect that seeing an easy victory like that might make young King John overconfident about the outcome of future battles he might lead?
In our next installment, back to England, with a brief stopover in Rome. And also more stuff in France.
See Edward II deal with ever-increasing tensions, that get worse when his father-in-law does something wacky! And what's that kooky Roger Mortimer up to? England's on a crash course for amusing hijinks!
A sample...
EDMUND, EARL OF KENT: Gee, Edward, I didn't mean to plunge England into civil war again. I was just trying to do the right thing.
EDWARD II: Of course I know that Edmund. You're my little brother, and I love you. (They hug. After it breaks.) Of course, I'm going to have to exile you now.
EDMUND, EARL OF KENT: (nods) Yeah, I was expecting that.
On the next 'Born a King'.
See Edward II deal with ever-increasing tensions, that get worse when his father-in-law does something wacky! And what's that kooky Roger Mortimer up to? England's on a crash course for amusing hijinks!
A sample...
EDMUND, EARL OF KENT: Gee, Edward, I didn't mean to plunge England into civil war again. I was just trying to do the right thing.
EDWARD II: Of course I know that Edmund. You're my little brother, and I love you. (They hug. After it breaks.) Of course, I'm going to have to exile you now.
EDMUND, EARL OF KENT: (nods) Yeah, I was expecting that.
On the next 'Born a King'.
Yes, exactly.
Interesting to see the changes accumulating slowly. The butterflies seem to be flapping a bit less slowly than in Now Blooms the Tutor Rose but I'm sure they're well on their way to knocking over some buildings.
Only thing that confused me is why did Queen Isabella die so much earlier in this TL than IOTL?
Might have been chance.
Or might have been the fact that as her husband wound up going harder against France earlier on, she wound up getting de facto imprisoned by the Despensers earlier.
I am picturing Edmund and Edward as cartoon characters now for some reason.
Exiled to where though? Ireland? France? Somewhere else where hijinks occur?
Normally France is the destination for English nobles in need of exile in this era... However I suspect that won't be in the cards due to... reasons.
So I suspect Edmund will be fleeing to the court of the Holy Roman Emperor since his brother does have an 'in', so to speak.
1327-8: England
1327-8: MY IDIOT BROTHER
"The Prince of Wales returned with the Bishop of Exeter[1] shortly after his contentious homage to his cousin. It was, by all accounts, a hurried trip--Stapledon claimed that the Earl of Kent had invited his nephew on a hunting trip after the homage, which young Edward had refused on his guardian's advice, and that the bishop himself had been trailed by men he suspected of being in the employ of Edward's enemies. And the Bishop had worse news--the loyalty of many of Edward's servants in France had been subverted. Many, including the Earl of Kent, were meeting with escaped Contriants, most notably the notorious Roger Mortimer of Wigmore[2]. Paris was, Stapledon declared, a wasp's nest of plots against England. It was, if anything, an understatement. Edward was reportedly made quite uneasy at this, especially at the involvement of his youngest brother. Edmund was charming, but pliable--Thomas, Earl of Norfolk[3] had on one occasion noted that Edmund had 'rather less wit than a sheep'. All of which made him a horribly plausible front for another uprising.
"The bishop also brought more news of the treaty, and Edward was angered to discover that the Count of Valois had performed a bait and switch. While in theory his previous holdings in Aquitaine save the Agenais were restored, in practice, he had merely seen his holding of those territories presently in his possession confirmed. The remainder were to be returned over a period of time on the condition of his accepting numerous disputes in the Duchy decided in favor of the French throne, and paying a sizable sum on top of that[4]. Edward was furious, but there was, at the moment, little he could do. For now he accepted the treaty, albeit with rather bad grace. The response in London to the treaty--which as usual spread shockingly soon, as if it were being leaked--was more wailing and gnashing of teeth, and blaming of Edward for a situation he had done little to produce, and was in fact already working to rebalance.
"The remainder of the year passed in fitful tension. Early in the next, the Prince of Wales married his long-time betrothed Philippa of Hainaut in London, an occurrence that was greatly celebrated[5]. As opposed to his father, the young prince was well-loved by the people of England, with his defiance before King John of France rapidly becoming a matter of national pride. Even Edward, who had toyed with ending the Hainaut match for a Castilian one[6], acknowledged Philippa to be 'most charming'. For awhile, it looked as if Edward might slip through his latest patch of disasters. And then two things happened in quick succession. Firstly, young Queen Maud became pregnant, an event the King insisted on noting with "plentiful celebration". Maud was still seen as a strange and alien queen by much of England, and so this was perhaps not as well taken as he'd imagine it would be. However, it was the second event that made it disastrous.
"Late in May, Maud's father had a Spiritual Franciscan, Pietro Rainalducci, elected Pope in Rome, the latest move in the emperor's ongoing war against John XXII. Still excommunicated, Louis had inserted himself into the Spiritual Franciscans' own struggle with the irascible pontiff, who had responded to the orders' arguments by declaring that the principle of private property dated to the Garden of Eden before the fall of man[7]. Louis had called together a church council, which among other things, had declared the Pope a heretic and then folded the matter into his ongoing efforts in Italy. Rainalducci, an inspiring speaker and preacher, had, after crowning himself, taken the name Nicholas V and begun to assemble his own college of cardinals[8]. The first antipapacy of the Avignon period had begun.
"News spread to England, where it quickly became rumored that Edward was going to join his father-in-law in the schism. This was not completely unjustified--Louis appears to have approached Edward on the matter, and Edward seems to have at least considered it. The outswell of public anger seem to have killed any such plans, and also convinced Edward to send his wife and younger children out of London to the north. And it was in this atmosphere that the Earl of Kent arrived in Cornwall at the head of a small band of men, accompanied by various Contrariants, among them Mortimer. Announcing his intentions to "restore order and the rule of law" to England, he promptly began a march on London, beginning the rising that would be named for him..."
--A Magnificent Counterfeit: the Life and Reign of Edward II of England, Jason Soames 1994
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[1] Walter Stapledon, one of Edward II's few staunch loyalists.
[2] This was the case during the aftershocks of the war IOTL as well, with the major change being that Isabelle was amongst Mortimer's faction. Oh, and of course, they had Prince Edward.
[3] The middle brother of Edward I's vast brood. By most accounts, Thomas was quite a quarrelsome fellow.
[4] This happened post-war IOTL as well. Edward was justifiably put out.
[5] They were married around this time IOTL.
[6] IOTL, Edward, after pursuing a Hainaut match for some time, switched to looking at a Castilian one, though this seems to have partially about causing trouble for Isabelle and her coup plans.
[7] John XXII did this in response to the Spiritual Franciscans IOTL as well. The question was whether the Apostles owned their own clothes, and his answer was seen as a bit of... papal overreach, so to say. Medieval theological discussions tend to be both irritating and fascinating at the same time.
[8] This entire antipapacy happened IOTL.
"The Prince of Wales returned with the Bishop of Exeter[1] shortly after his contentious homage to his cousin. It was, by all accounts, a hurried trip--Stapledon claimed that the Earl of Kent had invited his nephew on a hunting trip after the homage, which young Edward had refused on his guardian's advice, and that the bishop himself had been trailed by men he suspected of being in the employ of Edward's enemies. And the Bishop had worse news--the loyalty of many of Edward's servants in France had been subverted. Many, including the Earl of Kent, were meeting with escaped Contriants, most notably the notorious Roger Mortimer of Wigmore[2]. Paris was, Stapledon declared, a wasp's nest of plots against England. It was, if anything, an understatement. Edward was reportedly made quite uneasy at this, especially at the involvement of his youngest brother. Edmund was charming, but pliable--Thomas, Earl of Norfolk[3] had on one occasion noted that Edmund had 'rather less wit than a sheep'. All of which made him a horribly plausible front for another uprising.
"The bishop also brought more news of the treaty, and Edward was angered to discover that the Count of Valois had performed a bait and switch. While in theory his previous holdings in Aquitaine save the Agenais were restored, in practice, he had merely seen his holding of those territories presently in his possession confirmed. The remainder were to be returned over a period of time on the condition of his accepting numerous disputes in the Duchy decided in favor of the French throne, and paying a sizable sum on top of that[4]. Edward was furious, but there was, at the moment, little he could do. For now he accepted the treaty, albeit with rather bad grace. The response in London to the treaty--which as usual spread shockingly soon, as if it were being leaked--was more wailing and gnashing of teeth, and blaming of Edward for a situation he had done little to produce, and was in fact already working to rebalance.
"The remainder of the year passed in fitful tension. Early in the next, the Prince of Wales married his long-time betrothed Philippa of Hainaut in London, an occurrence that was greatly celebrated[5]. As opposed to his father, the young prince was well-loved by the people of England, with his defiance before King John of France rapidly becoming a matter of national pride. Even Edward, who had toyed with ending the Hainaut match for a Castilian one[6], acknowledged Philippa to be 'most charming'. For awhile, it looked as if Edward might slip through his latest patch of disasters. And then two things happened in quick succession. Firstly, young Queen Maud became pregnant, an event the King insisted on noting with "plentiful celebration". Maud was still seen as a strange and alien queen by much of England, and so this was perhaps not as well taken as he'd imagine it would be. However, it was the second event that made it disastrous.
"Late in May, Maud's father had a Spiritual Franciscan, Pietro Rainalducci, elected Pope in Rome, the latest move in the emperor's ongoing war against John XXII. Still excommunicated, Louis had inserted himself into the Spiritual Franciscans' own struggle with the irascible pontiff, who had responded to the orders' arguments by declaring that the principle of private property dated to the Garden of Eden before the fall of man[7]. Louis had called together a church council, which among other things, had declared the Pope a heretic and then folded the matter into his ongoing efforts in Italy. Rainalducci, an inspiring speaker and preacher, had, after crowning himself, taken the name Nicholas V and begun to assemble his own college of cardinals[8]. The first antipapacy of the Avignon period had begun.
"News spread to England, where it quickly became rumored that Edward was going to join his father-in-law in the schism. This was not completely unjustified--Louis appears to have approached Edward on the matter, and Edward seems to have at least considered it. The outswell of public anger seem to have killed any such plans, and also convinced Edward to send his wife and younger children out of London to the north. And it was in this atmosphere that the Earl of Kent arrived in Cornwall at the head of a small band of men, accompanied by various Contrariants, among them Mortimer. Announcing his intentions to "restore order and the rule of law" to England, he promptly began a march on London, beginning the rising that would be named for him..."
--A Magnificent Counterfeit: the Life and Reign of Edward II of England, Jason Soames 1994
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] Walter Stapledon, one of Edward II's few staunch loyalists.
[2] This was the case during the aftershocks of the war IOTL as well, with the major change being that Isabelle was amongst Mortimer's faction. Oh, and of course, they had Prince Edward.
[3] The middle brother of Edward I's vast brood. By most accounts, Thomas was quite a quarrelsome fellow.
[4] This happened post-war IOTL as well. Edward was justifiably put out.
[5] They were married around this time IOTL.
[6] IOTL, Edward, after pursuing a Hainaut match for some time, switched to looking at a Castilian one, though this seems to have partially about causing trouble for Isabelle and her coup plans.
[7] John XXII did this in response to the Spiritual Franciscans IOTL as well. The question was whether the Apostles owned their own clothes, and his answer was seen as a bit of... papal overreach, so to say. Medieval theological discussions tend to be both irritating and fascinating at the same time.
[8] This entire antipapacy happened IOTL.
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Right. That one swelled up on me.
Hope you all liked it, and are waiting for the next bit "How Edward gets out of this one".
Hope you all liked it, and are waiting for the next bit "How Edward gets out of this one".
John XXII really had a way of answering challenges with intellectual shotgun blasts. It made for an eventful papacy.
For example--this was the first of two times IOTL he was accused of heresy. And the second time, it didn't stick BECAUSE... it was determined that the area in discussion had only been definitively decided after his papacy.
Largely because the entire matter had required clarification BECAUSE of his papacy.
Finally out of lurk mode to say great TL. I am really enjoying it, I have been following all of your timelines for a while now! I am quite interested to see how Edward will get out of this mess only to screw it up all over again!
Oh, yeah. The center really couldn't hold here, because it wasn't holding to begin with, and never really had.
Should I mention that the things he believed that were deemed later heretical were actually pretty neat, and honestly, incredibly sympathetic?
Glad you like it. And welcome aboard.
The beatific vision stuff (which sounds like the Muslim view of the Final Judgement, TBH) or the Apostolic property stuff?
Beatific vision stuff.
Which by the way, included the belief that there might not be a Hell at the moment.
Just to check, is the uprising named after the Earl of Kent or Mortimer? I think it's the earl, but I wasn't entirely sure.
A less dangerous situation for Edward than OTL since he still has control of his heir, at least for the moment. I wonder what the Prince of Wales makes of the revolt. And whereabouts in the north has Edward sent his wife and children?
Some very interesting tidbits I was completely unaware of here. I'm sure more will come as this progresses.
A less dangerous situation for Edward than OTL since he still has control of his heir, at least for the moment. I wonder what the Prince of Wales makes of the revolt. And whereabouts in the north has Edward sent his wife and children?
Some very interesting tidbits I was completely unaware of here. I'm sure more will come as this progresses.
1328: England
1328: O FORTUNA VELUT LUNA
"The arrival of Kent at such a critical time was no coincidence--the English expatriates in France had received a steady stream of news and reports from relatives and sympathizers back in England, some of whom were at the very top levels of English government such as Adam Orleton, Bishop of Worcester[1]. As news of angry crowds, furious bishops, and Edward's clear panic and lack of resolve reached them, many felt now was the time to act. Later accounts would place Roger Mortimer at the head of this crowd, and while there is a certain neatness and convenience to this, it is probably true. Not all were so certain. Edmund of Kent himself was apparently nervous and doubtful from the outset a dangerous sign of the problems to come. But then, the Earl had always been a weak personality, easily lead by more forceful ones. Whatever objections he might have felt, they were easily quashed.
"The exact port the rebels left from remains a mystery, as does the level of French involvement. More than a few sources place France's arch-schemer, Robert of Artois, at the center of things, though it is quite likely this is mere conjecture. What is certain is that the little party arrived in Cornwall, by all reports no larger than a hundred men, and began to march towards London, with Edmund declaring that he had come to "set England right again". By the time they reached the capital, his forces numbered in the thousands.
"Edward's response to this was a muddle. In theory, his other brother, Thomas of Norfolk, was supposed to be gathering forces to prevent just this from happening. However, Norfolk proved either horribly inept at his job or treacherously unwilling to perform it[2]--no such army emerged. On reaching London, the rebels discovered that Edward had already fled along with his eldest son and the Despensers, leaving treasurer Walter Stapledon in control of the city. That poor man did not stay in control for very long, being overpowered by a mob and hanged shortly after the arrival of the rebel forces[3]. Kent entered the city to the celebration of the people. A week later, he would call together "lords and men of renown" to discuss the welfare of the kingdom. In the days that followed such important men as the Earls of Norfolk and Lancaster[4] would answer that call. All appeared to have gone astonishingly well for the rebels.
"It would not last."
This Tumultuous Age: The Revolts and Upheavals of the 14th Century, Elizabeth Eckermann (1976)
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[1] One of Edward's most outspoken foes, and one of our early sources for the homosexuality charge.
[2] This was even more the case IOTL, where he joined forces with Mortimer and Isabelle shortly after their arrival.
[3] This is how he died IOTL as well.
[4] The latter, in case you are wondering, is Henry, 3rd Earl, brother to the late unfortunate Thomas. More on him later.
"The arrival of Kent at such a critical time was no coincidence--the English expatriates in France had received a steady stream of news and reports from relatives and sympathizers back in England, some of whom were at the very top levels of English government such as Adam Orleton, Bishop of Worcester[1]. As news of angry crowds, furious bishops, and Edward's clear panic and lack of resolve reached them, many felt now was the time to act. Later accounts would place Roger Mortimer at the head of this crowd, and while there is a certain neatness and convenience to this, it is probably true. Not all were so certain. Edmund of Kent himself was apparently nervous and doubtful from the outset a dangerous sign of the problems to come. But then, the Earl had always been a weak personality, easily lead by more forceful ones. Whatever objections he might have felt, they were easily quashed.
"The exact port the rebels left from remains a mystery, as does the level of French involvement. More than a few sources place France's arch-schemer, Robert of Artois, at the center of things, though it is quite likely this is mere conjecture. What is certain is that the little party arrived in Cornwall, by all reports no larger than a hundred men, and began to march towards London, with Edmund declaring that he had come to "set England right again". By the time they reached the capital, his forces numbered in the thousands.
"Edward's response to this was a muddle. In theory, his other brother, Thomas of Norfolk, was supposed to be gathering forces to prevent just this from happening. However, Norfolk proved either horribly inept at his job or treacherously unwilling to perform it[2]--no such army emerged. On reaching London, the rebels discovered that Edward had already fled along with his eldest son and the Despensers, leaving treasurer Walter Stapledon in control of the city. That poor man did not stay in control for very long, being overpowered by a mob and hanged shortly after the arrival of the rebel forces[3]. Kent entered the city to the celebration of the people. A week later, he would call together "lords and men of renown" to discuss the welfare of the kingdom. In the days that followed such important men as the Earls of Norfolk and Lancaster[4] would answer that call. All appeared to have gone astonishingly well for the rebels.
"It would not last."
This Tumultuous Age: The Revolts and Upheavals of the 14th Century, Elizabeth Eckermann (1976)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] One of Edward's most outspoken foes, and one of our early sources for the homosexuality charge.
[2] This was even more the case IOTL, where he joined forces with Mortimer and Isabelle shortly after their arrival.
[3] This is how he died IOTL as well.
[4] The latter, in case you are wondering, is Henry, 3rd Earl, brother to the late unfortunate Thomas. More on him later.
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