If it isn't clear by now, that inevitable Franco-English war is becoming more and more inevitable.
Born a King; The Life and Times of John the Posthumous
- Thread starter Space Oddity
- Start date
You don't say? They look about on schedule. How is Yann III's health, by the way?
Considering crusaders' track record in the fourteenth century, that's probably best for all involved, including those who'll die in the coming war anyway.
I think you misnumbered one Enguerrand there. How is John by the way? Still dumb as ever?
1336-7: France, England, Scotland
1336-7: "...WHAT IS SURE TO BE A SWIFT AND EASY WAR..."
"By the middle of the year, the Scottish War had become the dominant interest of the French court, its most devoted partisan King John himself, to an extent that seems to have alarmed even his contemporaries. While one might expect those accounts written later to be critical of a conflict that had been entered into hastily and with unwarranted confidence, it appears John's enthusiasm was seen as dangerously unbridled even in its day. 'He will hear of nothing but victory,' wrote Cardinal Jacques Fournier[1], Avignon's unofficial emissary to the royal court, 'and those who have misgivings about his designs either silence them, or find themselves barred from his presence.' The cardinal was among those with 'misgivings', as indeed were many of his fellows, and the Pope himself. For John and Cardinal Fournier, it seems to have been a largely idealistic stance--with admittedly a pragmatic political element--however, for many other members of the college, such as the soon-to-be famed Cardinal Talleyrand, it was simply practical. The holders of vast estates in England, they feared war would jeopardize their property.
"They were not alone in this. France and England's entwinement of over two centuries had produced a sizable class of nobles and aristocrats who held land--and often titles--in both kingdoms. More worryingly, they were heavily concentrated in Normandy and the Gascony region--the two places most likely to see English troops on their soil--and included many prominent individuals, such as Raoul de Brienne, Count of Eu and Grand Constable of France[2]. Nor was this the only difficulty the French found themselves facing. While a great fleet had been assembled for the proposed, most of it lay in the Mediterranean. Indeed a fair portion of it lay in the Kingdom of Trinacria[3] on the sufferance of its Aragonese dynasty monarchs--traditional rivals of the Capets, and doubly so for a King of France in whom the blood of the Angevins flowed as a gift from his mother[4]... As news of the Crusade's cancellation circulated, the aging King Frederick III[5] ordered the French ships from his shore, suspecting that John planned a strike against him for the sake of his kin. It was yet another blow for John's efforts to assemble his invasion fleet. Still, for all the difficulties in gathering its warships, John could at least take comfort in the fact that he possessed most of the ships needed. This was not the case for the necessary transports... Just under a hundred merchant vessels were available for the purpose, a little under half what was needed, and even these were not readily available, and would takes weeks--perhaps even months--to gather and equip for war...
"More troublesome were the reports of Yon de Garencieres[5] of divisions and quarrels in the ranks of their Scottish allies. John Stewart remained at arms, claiming the honor of Guardian, and quite resentful of Sir Andrew's more broadly accepted regency--both factions frequently raided each others' strongholds, spending almost as much time attacking each other as they did the English and Balliol's supporters. Further, it was abundantly clear for all their professed loyalty to the Bruces, Scottish lords were taking advantage of the young king's absence to further their own power. In hopes of dealing with this problem, John had already ordered the assembling of a 'body of learned men, well-versed in the laws of the Scots' to seek some sort of legal solution, or at least face-saving compromise, to this problem--unfortunately, the whole matter would shortly be made moot...
"Prince Edward was well-informed of French plans--arguably better informed of the plans than of their actual progress--and took a swift action. While he had planned to leave campaigning in Scotland to Henry of Lancaster and the Earl of Gloucester for the immediate future, as the severity of the French intervention became clear, he decided to lead the next round himself. Setting off from the North, he would march first to Lochindorb, where he rescued the hapless Earl of Atholl, who the chronicles said, had finished the fortress' store of wheat months earlier, and would have finished its store of rye[6] had the Prince not arrived. Following this, he marched to Aberdeen, where he laid waste to the town, and despoiled the land for miles around. Having thus destroyed France's ability to directly support the Scots, he marched home, spreading terror as he did so, and capping his triumph by capturing Sir Andrew Murray once again[7]. This time, there would be no ransom for the Guardian--Edward had him summarily executed for his previous dishonoring of his word[8]. And so Prince Edward left Scotland, never to return[9]...
"King John responded to his cousin's upending of his plans with a great deal of fury, not unlike the Prince did when the Scots upended his by not staying conquered. No effort was made to try and make a peace[10]--John instead committed towards an invasion of England, even as it became clear he could not afford it..."
--John I of France, Vol. 1; A King in His Cradle, Antony Oates (1978)
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[1] IOTL's Benedict XII.
[2] This was also the case for Brienne IOTL. It would ultimately not end well for him.
[3] Another term for the island kingdom of Sicily, meant to distinguish it from the Neapolitan Kingdom of Sicily.
[4] In point of fact, the Angevins and their Aragonese counterparts were, if not at war at this time, pretty close to it.
[5] IOTL, Frederick never went this far, but John's perceived closer ties to the Angevins and more heedless nature provoke a more extreme response.
[6] Atholl's wife was in similar straits when she was rescued IOTL.
[7] Murray was in fact nearly captured IOTL in similar circumstances.
[8] While this undoubtedly a blow to the Scots, Murray died in 1338 of illness IOTL.
[9] The raid on Aberdeen was Edward's last campaign in Scotland IOTL as well.
[10] Philip VI spent time trying to reach a peace almost to the very brink of war--John is a more confident, and indeed, thoughtless individual, and so his efforts are less extensive.
"By the middle of the year, the Scottish War had become the dominant interest of the French court, its most devoted partisan King John himself, to an extent that seems to have alarmed even his contemporaries. While one might expect those accounts written later to be critical of a conflict that had been entered into hastily and with unwarranted confidence, it appears John's enthusiasm was seen as dangerously unbridled even in its day. 'He will hear of nothing but victory,' wrote Cardinal Jacques Fournier[1], Avignon's unofficial emissary to the royal court, 'and those who have misgivings about his designs either silence them, or find themselves barred from his presence.' The cardinal was among those with 'misgivings', as indeed were many of his fellows, and the Pope himself. For John and Cardinal Fournier, it seems to have been a largely idealistic stance--with admittedly a pragmatic political element--however, for many other members of the college, such as the soon-to-be famed Cardinal Talleyrand, it was simply practical. The holders of vast estates in England, they feared war would jeopardize their property.
"They were not alone in this. France and England's entwinement of over two centuries had produced a sizable class of nobles and aristocrats who held land--and often titles--in both kingdoms. More worryingly, they were heavily concentrated in Normandy and the Gascony region--the two places most likely to see English troops on their soil--and included many prominent individuals, such as Raoul de Brienne, Count of Eu and Grand Constable of France[2]. Nor was this the only difficulty the French found themselves facing. While a great fleet had been assembled for the proposed, most of it lay in the Mediterranean. Indeed a fair portion of it lay in the Kingdom of Trinacria[3] on the sufferance of its Aragonese dynasty monarchs--traditional rivals of the Capets, and doubly so for a King of France in whom the blood of the Angevins flowed as a gift from his mother[4]... As news of the Crusade's cancellation circulated, the aging King Frederick III[5] ordered the French ships from his shore, suspecting that John planned a strike against him for the sake of his kin. It was yet another blow for John's efforts to assemble his invasion fleet. Still, for all the difficulties in gathering its warships, John could at least take comfort in the fact that he possessed most of the ships needed. This was not the case for the necessary transports... Just under a hundred merchant vessels were available for the purpose, a little under half what was needed, and even these were not readily available, and would takes weeks--perhaps even months--to gather and equip for war...
"More troublesome were the reports of Yon de Garencieres[5] of divisions and quarrels in the ranks of their Scottish allies. John Stewart remained at arms, claiming the honor of Guardian, and quite resentful of Sir Andrew's more broadly accepted regency--both factions frequently raided each others' strongholds, spending almost as much time attacking each other as they did the English and Balliol's supporters. Further, it was abundantly clear for all their professed loyalty to the Bruces, Scottish lords were taking advantage of the young king's absence to further their own power. In hopes of dealing with this problem, John had already ordered the assembling of a 'body of learned men, well-versed in the laws of the Scots' to seek some sort of legal solution, or at least face-saving compromise, to this problem--unfortunately, the whole matter would shortly be made moot...
"Prince Edward was well-informed of French plans--arguably better informed of the plans than of their actual progress--and took a swift action. While he had planned to leave campaigning in Scotland to Henry of Lancaster and the Earl of Gloucester for the immediate future, as the severity of the French intervention became clear, he decided to lead the next round himself. Setting off from the North, he would march first to Lochindorb, where he rescued the hapless Earl of Atholl, who the chronicles said, had finished the fortress' store of wheat months earlier, and would have finished its store of rye[6] had the Prince not arrived. Following this, he marched to Aberdeen, where he laid waste to the town, and despoiled the land for miles around. Having thus destroyed France's ability to directly support the Scots, he marched home, spreading terror as he did so, and capping his triumph by capturing Sir Andrew Murray once again[7]. This time, there would be no ransom for the Guardian--Edward had him summarily executed for his previous dishonoring of his word[8]. And so Prince Edward left Scotland, never to return[9]...
"King John responded to his cousin's upending of his plans with a great deal of fury, not unlike the Prince did when the Scots upended his by not staying conquered. No effort was made to try and make a peace[10]--John instead committed towards an invasion of England, even as it became clear he could not afford it..."
--John I of France, Vol. 1; A King in His Cradle, Antony Oates (1978)
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[1] IOTL's Benedict XII.
[2] This was also the case for Brienne IOTL. It would ultimately not end well for him.
[3] Another term for the island kingdom of Sicily, meant to distinguish it from the Neapolitan Kingdom of Sicily.
[4] In point of fact, the Angevins and their Aragonese counterparts were, if not at war at this time, pretty close to it.
[5] IOTL, Frederick never went this far, but John's perceived closer ties to the Angevins and more heedless nature provoke a more extreme response.
[6] Atholl's wife was in similar straits when she was rescued IOTL.
[7] Murray was in fact nearly captured IOTL in similar circumstances.
[8] While this undoubtedly a blow to the Scots, Murray died in 1338 of illness IOTL.
[9] The raid on Aberdeen was Edward's last campaign in Scotland IOTL as well.
[10] Philip VI spent time trying to reach a peace almost to the very brink of war--John is a more confident, and indeed, thoughtless individual, and so his efforts are less extensive.
France's problem was it was the metaphorical 800 lb. gorilla, so far as its neighbors were concerned. Rivalries with fellow would-be hegemons were more or less inevitable.
Of course, the rivalries frequently shift about...
Aye, it's interesting seeing how the ancestral enemy is different every century or so. England-Spain-Austria-Britain-Germany. I'd say it comes with the territory, but it mostly came with the demographic weight, I think.
The update was as good as ever. Am I right in suspecting that Oates's first volume is drawing to a close and that Jean is going to permanently move away from his cradle?
Wow! So finally caught up with this, I just have one question I gotta know about this TL. Do the Capets survive? Not the branches I mean the real direct Capetian royal family? Does John have male descendants? Also great TL.
1337: France
1337: "AND THE LORD SHALL PRESERVE YOUR LINE"
"...In early March of the year, celebrations for the birth of Prince Louis took place throughout France. For John the birth of his first child was not merely a joyous occasion, but the production of a clear and undeniable male heir to his throne. John's joy at his son's birth was by most accounts overwhelming--he ordered the bells of every cathedral in Paris to ring continously for the next three days, and would distribute extremely generous alms by his own hands during the time as well. Reportedly, he bragged to his council that having found the knack of it, he would soon breed "an army of princes". It was an idle boast--while there would be daughters in the years that followed, Louis would be John's only son. Indeed, as many contemporary historians would note, the King was probably more pleased with his heir at this moment then he would be throughout his life, despite Louis' later accomplishments...
"The young Prince was declared Duke of Normandy almost immediately[1] as well as being granted numerous castles, lands, and jewels... In the wave of gift-giving the King managed to give something to himself--the now twenty-year old monarch declared the beginning of his personal rule a year early. While the initial effects were subtle--John had become the dominant figure on the council recently without a formal declaration--it represented a further loss of the authority of older, calmer men such as the Duke of Anjou...
"Within a few months, John displayed this new freedom in yet another family matter, wedding his niece Joan of Evereux to the young John Bruce, King of Scots, who was all of twelve. In this he surpassed his bride, who was only ten[2]. While it is obvious that neither of the wedded couple had much say in the matter, neither did much of the council. In light of the recent developments in Scotland[3] most of them viewed the Bruce cause has irreparibly lost--but John continued to back the young claimant even as his loyalists splintered into internal feuds...
"Even as the King of France deepened his commitment with the Bruces, he widened his struggle against the English. In July of 1336, Parlement had found against Prince Edward in the matter of the baron Garcie Arnaud[4], finding his claims valid and rewarding him substantial damages, to be collected from the Prince's Gascon holdings. It was a blatant effort to expand the conflict to Gascony, and was seen as such in the English court...
"By now it was abundantly clear that the days of wondering where the power lay in the French court were over. None now doubted it lay with King John."
--John I of France, Vol. 2; A King on His Throne, Antony Oates (1980)
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[1] The title and holdings of the Duke of Normandy had become by degrees a traditional holding of the heir to the French throne by this point.
[2] This is actually better than David Bruce's IOTL marriage to Joan of England, which happened when he was four, and she was seven.
[3] To be discussed in a later installment. Scotland! I just can't quit it!
[4] Garcie Arnaud was likewise used as a convenient excuse to apply the screws to Edward III IOTL as well. His case was just a tad dubious, but frankly the French were looking for something that would leave a mark, and his fit the bill.
"...In early March of the year, celebrations for the birth of Prince Louis took place throughout France. For John the birth of his first child was not merely a joyous occasion, but the production of a clear and undeniable male heir to his throne. John's joy at his son's birth was by most accounts overwhelming--he ordered the bells of every cathedral in Paris to ring continously for the next three days, and would distribute extremely generous alms by his own hands during the time as well. Reportedly, he bragged to his council that having found the knack of it, he would soon breed "an army of princes". It was an idle boast--while there would be daughters in the years that followed, Louis would be John's only son. Indeed, as many contemporary historians would note, the King was probably more pleased with his heir at this moment then he would be throughout his life, despite Louis' later accomplishments...
"The young Prince was declared Duke of Normandy almost immediately[1] as well as being granted numerous castles, lands, and jewels... In the wave of gift-giving the King managed to give something to himself--the now twenty-year old monarch declared the beginning of his personal rule a year early. While the initial effects were subtle--John had become the dominant figure on the council recently without a formal declaration--it represented a further loss of the authority of older, calmer men such as the Duke of Anjou...
"Within a few months, John displayed this new freedom in yet another family matter, wedding his niece Joan of Evereux to the young John Bruce, King of Scots, who was all of twelve. In this he surpassed his bride, who was only ten[2]. While it is obvious that neither of the wedded couple had much say in the matter, neither did much of the council. In light of the recent developments in Scotland[3] most of them viewed the Bruce cause has irreparibly lost--but John continued to back the young claimant even as his loyalists splintered into internal feuds...
"Even as the King of France deepened his commitment with the Bruces, he widened his struggle against the English. In July of 1336, Parlement had found against Prince Edward in the matter of the baron Garcie Arnaud[4], finding his claims valid and rewarding him substantial damages, to be collected from the Prince's Gascon holdings. It was a blatant effort to expand the conflict to Gascony, and was seen as such in the English court...
"By now it was abundantly clear that the days of wondering where the power lay in the French court were over. None now doubted it lay with King John."
--John I of France, Vol. 2; A King on His Throne, Antony Oates (1980)
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[1] The title and holdings of the Duke of Normandy had become by degrees a traditional holding of the heir to the French throne by this point.
[2] This is actually better than David Bruce's IOTL marriage to Joan of England, which happened when he was four, and she was seven.
[3] To be discussed in a later installment. Scotland! I just can't quit it!
[4] Garcie Arnaud was likewise used as a convenient excuse to apply the screws to Edward III IOTL as well. His case was just a tad dubious, but frankly the French were looking for something that would leave a mark, and his fit the bill.
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Oh, if it were that easy, nobody would write multiple volume biographies of the man. That said--being a medieval king from the moment one is born is not going to lead to balanced psyche.
Throw in the kingdom being one on the road to demographic disaster with multiple enemies... and it's not going to be pretty.
Glad to see this return 
are you implying that Louis will grow to do great things, ahhh capitians may you rule France forever #firstcapitiansRbestcapitians
are you implying that Louis will grow to do great things, ahhh capitians may you rule France forever #firstcapitiansRbestcapitiansTbf, at least he's a crowned head, rather than the elected dumbassess we have nowadays.
Not to derail the thread but how much support does reinstating a monarchy have in France these days?