Born a King; The Life and Times of John the Posthumous
- Thread starter Space Oddity
- Start date
Poor Philippe never catches a break, does he? I mean, he still has done nothing as disastrous as Crécy this time around but this idea of a crusade could turn out very badly.
Jean is what, 13 or 14, now? How goes his education? Is he starting to make friends with some people in his court, is he beginning to assert his voice or is he still treated as 'that kid who will rule us all one of these days but in the meantime let's pay no attention to him, I'm sure he'll not resent us'? And perhaps even more importantly, is he much taken in by the knightly arts and the code of conduct the knights are supposed to follow?
Jean is what, 13 or 14, now? How goes his education? Is he starting to make friends with some people in his court, is he beginning to assert his voice or is he still treated as 'that kid who will rule us all one of these days but in the meantime let's pay no attention to him, I'm sure he'll not resent us'? And perhaps even more importantly, is he much taken in by the knightly arts and the code of conduct the knights are supposed to follow?
He was looking into it OTL as well. If you were a French King/Prominent Noble, it was what you did.
It should also be clear that Barbara Morell writes from a different POV than Antony Oakes.
Ayup. Louis IX really screwed everyone over by going away not once but twice on crusade. At least Philippe II was sensible enough to come home and leave Richard I in the lurch and only letting his nobles pick up the crusading trade to reduce the influence of other too influent nobles on his borders.
Space Oddity stated that he was taking a break from them and doing this to get his mojo back.
1330: France
1330: AN ISSUE OF THE MAJORITY
"And so it was on the feast of Saint Stephen, the King of France did meet with his kin and his lords, to celebrate both that Saint's blessed martyrdom, and his own reaching of the age of majority. And many great lords and ladies were there with King John and his good lady--Philip of Valois, who had been Regent of France and his wife, Joan of Burgundy; the Count of Valois' brother, Charles of Alencon; Philip, Count of Evereux and his wife, Joan of France, the King's half-sister[1]; Eudes, Duke of Burgundy, and his wife, Joan of Poitiers, as well as her brother Philip, Count of Burgundy[2], who was the King's close cousin; Robert of Artois, Count of Beaumont, and his wife; Edward, King of England, and his wife, Queen Philippa[3]; John, King of Bohemia[4], and his son, Charles, who Pope John {XXIII} would crown King of the Romans in later years[5]; Charles, Count of Etampes[6]; Louis, Count of Clermont, who was the Grand Chamberlain, and Raoul of Brienne, Count of Eu, who was Constable, and many other great and noble lords beyond count....[7]
"And then King John did speak, and say it was meet and good that he stood now a man and would begin rule in his own right, and that he wished to reward all who had done him good service in the years of his childhood. And first he did call the Regent to him, and declared that as Philip of Valois had done him so many good turns, and so many worthy things, it was only fitting he be honored greatly. And so he did name Philip of Valois Duke of Anjou[8] and Grand Master of France[9], honors that the former Regent so greatly that he did weep in joy and proclaimed that John did hold his service not merely from duty, but from the brotherly affection that Philip did hold in him.
"With this done, the King called his cousin, the Count of Burgundy, and granted to him the title Duke of Berry, and assured him of his love and affection. And then he did call for the Count of Alencon, who was made a Peer of France, and named a Marshal for his brave acts in Flanders and Gascony. The Count of Clermont was made Duke of Bourbon[10], and the Counts of Evereux and Etampes were made peers, and many great honors were done, when the King did call on Robert of Artois. And then when the Count of Beaumont stood before him, the King proclaimed he was greatly honored to restore to Robert the lands of his grandfather, and proclaimed him Count of Artois[11].
"And the Count of Burgundy did rise, full wroth, and declared that his cousin had done him great wrong, robbing him of the lands of his grandmother, saying "How expect you me to swallow this wrong, me your kinsman? For am I not your heir?" And King John did say, "So some say, but this I know not. Indeed, I do deny it." And from that day on, the Count of Burgundy knew the King loved him not. And their cousin, the King of England saw this as well..."
--from The Chronicles of Jean Froissart, Vol. 1, John Tremain translation (1845)
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[1] IOTL, the King and Queen of Navarre at this time.
[2] He's also Count of Poitiers, but as the County of Burgundy is a Count-Palatinate in the Empire, it's the higher title.
[3] Froissart is getting his facts muddled--Edward was only Prince of Wales, and his wife Philippa was not present.
[4] John was a frequent guest at Paris OTL, and would never miss an event like this. IOTL, he was fighting for the Teutonic Knights against the Poles around this time, demonstrating his talent for picking losers.
[5] IOTL, Emperor Charles IV, who was crowned by Pope Clement VI in circumstances we will deal with later. Just as we will reveal the identity of the mysterious John XXIII in the near future.
[6] As Jean Froissart has failed to note, Philip of Evereux's elder brother.
[7] I'm skipping a lengthy description of the courses of the feast. Be thankful.
[8] IOTL, Philip himself created this title for his second son.
[9] One of the Great Offices of France. This is a real plum for Philip, and a sign that for all he will come to bitch about him, John was fonder of the man then he would later come to admit.
[10] IOTL, he received this title in 1327, along with the County of de la Marche, in exchange for giving up the County of Clermont.
[11] IOTL, of course, Robert's efforts ended in disaster and exile for himself. So, he's had a lucky break here.
"And so it was on the feast of Saint Stephen, the King of France did meet with his kin and his lords, to celebrate both that Saint's blessed martyrdom, and his own reaching of the age of majority. And many great lords and ladies were there with King John and his good lady--Philip of Valois, who had been Regent of France and his wife, Joan of Burgundy; the Count of Valois' brother, Charles of Alencon; Philip, Count of Evereux and his wife, Joan of France, the King's half-sister[1]; Eudes, Duke of Burgundy, and his wife, Joan of Poitiers, as well as her brother Philip, Count of Burgundy[2], who was the King's close cousin; Robert of Artois, Count of Beaumont, and his wife; Edward, King of England, and his wife, Queen Philippa[3]; John, King of Bohemia[4], and his son, Charles, who Pope John {XXIII} would crown King of the Romans in later years[5]; Charles, Count of Etampes[6]; Louis, Count of Clermont, who was the Grand Chamberlain, and Raoul of Brienne, Count of Eu, who was Constable, and many other great and noble lords beyond count....[7]
"And then King John did speak, and say it was meet and good that he stood now a man and would begin rule in his own right, and that he wished to reward all who had done him good service in the years of his childhood. And first he did call the Regent to him, and declared that as Philip of Valois had done him so many good turns, and so many worthy things, it was only fitting he be honored greatly. And so he did name Philip of Valois Duke of Anjou[8] and Grand Master of France[9], honors that the former Regent so greatly that he did weep in joy and proclaimed that John did hold his service not merely from duty, but from the brotherly affection that Philip did hold in him.
"With this done, the King called his cousin, the Count of Burgundy, and granted to him the title Duke of Berry, and assured him of his love and affection. And then he did call for the Count of Alencon, who was made a Peer of France, and named a Marshal for his brave acts in Flanders and Gascony. The Count of Clermont was made Duke of Bourbon[10], and the Counts of Evereux and Etampes were made peers, and many great honors were done, when the King did call on Robert of Artois. And then when the Count of Beaumont stood before him, the King proclaimed he was greatly honored to restore to Robert the lands of his grandfather, and proclaimed him Count of Artois[11].
"And the Count of Burgundy did rise, full wroth, and declared that his cousin had done him great wrong, robbing him of the lands of his grandmother, saying "How expect you me to swallow this wrong, me your kinsman? For am I not your heir?" And King John did say, "So some say, but this I know not. Indeed, I do deny it." And from that day on, the Count of Burgundy knew the King loved him not. And their cousin, the King of England saw this as well..."
--from The Chronicles of Jean Froissart, Vol. 1, John Tremain translation (1845)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
[1] IOTL, the King and Queen of Navarre at this time.
[2] He's also Count of Poitiers, but as the County of Burgundy is a Count-Palatinate in the Empire, it's the higher title.
[3] Froissart is getting his facts muddled--Edward was only Prince of Wales, and his wife Philippa was not present.
[4] John was a frequent guest at Paris OTL, and would never miss an event like this. IOTL, he was fighting for the Teutonic Knights against the Poles around this time, demonstrating his talent for picking losers.
[5] IOTL, Emperor Charles IV, who was crowned by Pope Clement VI in circumstances we will deal with later. Just as we will reveal the identity of the mysterious John XXIII in the near future.
[6] As Jean Froissart has failed to note, Philip of Evereux's elder brother.
[7] I'm skipping a lengthy description of the courses of the feast. Be thankful.
[8] IOTL, Philip himself created this title for his second son.
[9] One of the Great Offices of France. This is a real plum for Philip, and a sign that for all he will come to bitch about him, John was fonder of the man then he would later come to admit.
[10] IOTL, he received this title in 1327, along with the County of de la Marche, in exchange for giving up the County of Clermont.
[11] IOTL, of course, Robert's efforts ended in disaster and exile for himself. So, he's had a lucky break here.
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Yep, though realize that Froissart tends to have a real bad case of presentism...
Robert was also a key figure in convincing Edward III to claim the French crown, at least from what I know. Edward was provocative but not a fool, and the disaster of the War of Saint Sardos does much to calm down revanchist velleities of England. Without a not less provocative Robert of Artois to press Edward into action, and without even the legal ground provided by the extinction of the direct Capetians, the eventuality of Edward going to war doesn't look to happen soon; there would be a long way to go before Edward feels confident enough to challenge France.
That is the semi-official version.
Let's just say that it ignores several other factors that will be commented on in due course. Ultimately, Robert was a handy thing for Philip to bitch about IOTL, I'd argue.
I don't say the contrary, and if I was to make a guess, I would say that the cause will come from HRE (and the last update hinted something will happen here), the only player which force can contest the French army, at least on the paper, not counting Flanders which were through the 14th century a constant source of trouble for the Kings of France.
EDIT : The Saint Sardos shadow I spoke of is a psychological factor that is bound to disappear at the first occasion the French army takes a serious defeat.
Ah, that answers some of my previous questions. Jean is up and running, now! And Froissart is being an inveterate gossip, as ever. Now, what was Edward's view on the meeting? Was he in any way impressed by Jean on their second encounter, after that unpleasant matter of fealty? What kind of shenanigans did he indulge in? Just the regular kind, or did he go in a more serious way about it? And who is Jean's heir in his own point of view, since it does not seem to be his first cousin?
There is a great deal to be unpacked with the mere mention of the future Pope and the King of the Romans. First, that John remains an acceptable name for a Pope. So John XXII might not have screwed his reputation that badly ITTL (or the Papacy stays in the family, but that's very unlikely). Second, that Charles never becomes Emperor of the Romans or is not recognized as such. So, is the death of his rival Louis IV butterflied away (which is quite possible)? Does that mean no Golden Bull? Is there a lengthy war in the HRE? Possibly involving the count of Burgundy (sorry, the duke of Berry)?
Minor nitpick: I know there was a deformation of the name which led to Norman knights being called Devereux or Deveraux in England, but the city in France is called Evreux. Which reminds me: is an ATL brother of Charles the Bad coming?
There is a great deal to be unpacked with the mere mention of the future Pope and the King of the Romans. First, that John remains an acceptable name for a Pope. So John XXII might not have screwed his reputation that badly ITTL (or the Papacy stays in the family, but that's very unlikely). Second, that Charles never becomes Emperor of the Romans or is not recognized as such. So, is the death of his rival Louis IV butterflied away (which is quite possible)? Does that mean no Golden Bull? Is there a lengthy war in the HRE? Possibly involving the count of Burgundy (sorry, the duke of Berry)?
Minor nitpick: I know there was a deformation of the name which led to Norman knights being called Devereux or Deveraux in England, but the city in France is called Evreux. Which reminds me: is an ATL brother of Charles the Bad coming?
Likely John consider his half sister Joan as his first heiress. Really the Salic law in OTL France started when Philip was favored over Joan after John's death and was reinforced to the total exclusion of female
lines when Philip VI was declared King over Joan (female heiress of dinasty who was already passed in favour of her uncles like her cousins after her) who became only Queen of Navarre (inheritance from her grandmother) and Edward III of England who was the closes male heir (but in the female line).
And really I found the fact who Mahaut inherited Artois over the son of her brother a very strange thing...
lines when Philip VI was declared King over Joan (female heiress of dinasty who was already passed in favour of her uncles like her cousins after her) who became only Queen of Navarre (inheritance from her grandmother) and Edward III of England who was the closes male heir (but in the female line).
And really I found the fact who Mahaut inherited Artois over the son of her brother a very strange thing...
Fantastic TL, My writing bug has sparked an interest in Plantagenet era Europe, and I'm digging this alternate Capet world. Keep it coming!
Thank you. My apologies if the work's been a bit slow last month.
It's been one of those times.
It's been one of those times.
1331: France and Navarre
1331: ON OUR SHIELDS WE RAISE HIM
"The immediate consequences of the famed 'Feast of Saint Stephen' incident was the Artois-Burgundy feud reaching a new level of intensity--the long term effects were to prove more insidious. Whatever King John had hoped to achieve by granting Robert the County of Artois, the reality was the nobleman had never held the area for any length of time, and the allies he had possessed at the start of his lengthy war against his aunt were largely gone. Thus, Artois became again the scene of furtive resistance and uprisings as the House of Artois and its Burgundian cousins fought. Arguably, France was saved the Disorder breaking two decades early only by the Duke of Burgundy's relative incompetence--a proud and prickly man, he proved unable to successfully marshal resistance to Count Robert. The next few years of the feud with be little more than a dull progression of lawsuits, counter-suits and the occasional act of brutality. Indeed, in the immediate future, the whole matter would be overshadowed by a more obvious bit of royal drama..
"The crown of Navarre was a small but proud Iberian possession, its Basque subjects prickly and protective of what they viewed as their rights. To their minds, they had dealt patiently with rule from Paris against all ancient custom for decades now, through not only John's life so far, but the entirety of his father's. Now they were beginning to make demands, calling for the King to come to Pamplona, to be properly invested with the kingship as custom called for.
"The Basques' appeal was propitiously timed--young John, while no longer under the regency, was still expected to rule with the advice of the senior members of his court, something the self-willed young monarch hated. Their demand that he visit Navarre freed him from the tutelage of the Duke of Anjou, and the quarrels that he unleashed over the Artois affair. The project, already possessing the good favor of the king, soon gained that of Philipe of Valois. Still fancying himself the protector of the French crown--quite possibly with good reason--he had no wish to see the recently gained Iberian possessions creep away, a threat he detected in the margins of the Basques' demands...
"John's royal tour to Pamplona would be the young king's first great procession through his kingdom, and succeeded in impressing on the young man a true measure of the vastness of what he ruled, as well as allowing the handsome young man to impress himself on his subjects. This is not all he would impress on them. Accompanying John was his elder half-sister Joan, her husband, Philip of Evreux, and their two children, Marie and Louis[1]. King John's favor to his sister, niece and nephew was pronounced, even in these days. Few mistook its meaning, given his famous denial of the Count-Palatine of Burgundy's status as his heir--John felt that his proper successors at the present were Joan and her children. In Toulouse, John was reported to have calmed the weeping Louis by taking him in arms, and declaring him a "bold fellow"--something he would insist in later years was the source of his nephew's famed sobriquet--proclaimed to his sister, "I swear to you, by the blessed Virgin, he shall do well by me." His sister was not however, the only person who was watching, and tongues soon began to wag...
"Navarre was a rural kingdom, its famed capital a small backwater--despite this, it won John's heart. Enjoying its bullfights, its easy customs and its ancient buildings, as well as the plainspoken manner of its nobles, he would be ceremoniously raised on a shield and formally accepted as King of Navarre in August. A week later, his sister would give birth to her third child, Blanche, who would be baptized there in Pamplona. As John enjoyed the adoration of his rural subjects, he could hardly know that miles and miles away, affairs in the British Isles were occurring that would spark the conflict that would engulf the rest of his life..."
--John I of France, Vol. 1; A King in His Cradle, Antony Oates (1978)
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[1] These were the names of Philip and Joan's children IOTL.
"The immediate consequences of the famed 'Feast of Saint Stephen' incident was the Artois-Burgundy feud reaching a new level of intensity--the long term effects were to prove more insidious. Whatever King John had hoped to achieve by granting Robert the County of Artois, the reality was the nobleman had never held the area for any length of time, and the allies he had possessed at the start of his lengthy war against his aunt were largely gone. Thus, Artois became again the scene of furtive resistance and uprisings as the House of Artois and its Burgundian cousins fought. Arguably, France was saved the Disorder breaking two decades early only by the Duke of Burgundy's relative incompetence--a proud and prickly man, he proved unable to successfully marshal resistance to Count Robert. The next few years of the feud with be little more than a dull progression of lawsuits, counter-suits and the occasional act of brutality. Indeed, in the immediate future, the whole matter would be overshadowed by a more obvious bit of royal drama..
"The crown of Navarre was a small but proud Iberian possession, its Basque subjects prickly and protective of what they viewed as their rights. To their minds, they had dealt patiently with rule from Paris against all ancient custom for decades now, through not only John's life so far, but the entirety of his father's. Now they were beginning to make demands, calling for the King to come to Pamplona, to be properly invested with the kingship as custom called for.
"The Basques' appeal was propitiously timed--young John, while no longer under the regency, was still expected to rule with the advice of the senior members of his court, something the self-willed young monarch hated. Their demand that he visit Navarre freed him from the tutelage of the Duke of Anjou, and the quarrels that he unleashed over the Artois affair. The project, already possessing the good favor of the king, soon gained that of Philipe of Valois. Still fancying himself the protector of the French crown--quite possibly with good reason--he had no wish to see the recently gained Iberian possessions creep away, a threat he detected in the margins of the Basques' demands...
"John's royal tour to Pamplona would be the young king's first great procession through his kingdom, and succeeded in impressing on the young man a true measure of the vastness of what he ruled, as well as allowing the handsome young man to impress himself on his subjects. This is not all he would impress on them. Accompanying John was his elder half-sister Joan, her husband, Philip of Evreux, and their two children, Marie and Louis[1]. King John's favor to his sister, niece and nephew was pronounced, even in these days. Few mistook its meaning, given his famous denial of the Count-Palatine of Burgundy's status as his heir--John felt that his proper successors at the present were Joan and her children. In Toulouse, John was reported to have calmed the weeping Louis by taking him in arms, and declaring him a "bold fellow"--something he would insist in later years was the source of his nephew's famed sobriquet--proclaimed to his sister, "I swear to you, by the blessed Virgin, he shall do well by me." His sister was not however, the only person who was watching, and tongues soon began to wag...
"Navarre was a rural kingdom, its famed capital a small backwater--despite this, it won John's heart. Enjoying its bullfights, its easy customs and its ancient buildings, as well as the plainspoken manner of its nobles, he would be ceremoniously raised on a shield and formally accepted as King of Navarre in August. A week later, his sister would give birth to her third child, Blanche, who would be baptized there in Pamplona. As John enjoyed the adoration of his rural subjects, he could hardly know that miles and miles away, affairs in the British Isles were occurring that would spark the conflict that would engulf the rest of his life..."
--John I of France, Vol. 1; A King in His Cradle, Antony Oates (1978)
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[1] These were the names of Philip and Joan's children IOTL.