God knows I've posted enough about how awful the execution of Turtledove's TL-191 series is. But to give the series its due, most of the basic premises of the TL were interesting and reasonably realistic. Startng from How Few Remain, the extension of European alliance systems to the New World, the US alliance with Germany, the CS alliance with Britain and France, the parallels between how WW1 was fought in Europe and North America, the defeat of the CSA, and the rise of a nationalistic, racist, leader in the CSA made sense. To say that the books are just a rehash of our TL in a different one is not true - and by ending his WW2 with nukes being thrown around by 4-5 major powers and the USA just gobbling up the defeated CSA, noboby can claim this was our history with only the names changed.
Books with Great Premises that failed utterly to carry them out
- Thread starter Father Maryland
- Start date
When it comes to TL-191, I thought How Few Remain was actually a really good book. The rest of the series were just obvious rehashes of the wars and the Nazis and such, but How Few Remain remained (ha, pun.) pretty original. It paralleled the Franco-Prussian War a little bit, but the way the war worked out seemed realistic enough, and the basic idea was plausible. The writing wasn't too great, but that's just Turtledove I suppose.
I won't defend any of the other books though, though I loved them when I was 10.
Also, 1945 by Newt Gingrich was pretty terrible. (yes, Newt Gingrich wrote a Nazis win book)
I won't defend any of the other books though, though I loved them when I was 10.
Also, 1945 by Newt Gingrich was pretty terrible. (yes, Newt Gingrich wrote a Nazis win book)
The Killing Star by Charles Pellegrino and George Zebrowski. The premise is fascinating and terrifying: an alien species almost completely annihilates humanity with projectiles moving at relativistic speeds, all within the first 15 pages of the book. Thereafter, the story follows scattered groups of human survivors throughout the solar system. The aliens' motivation? It was merely preemptive self-defense, since humanity had the technology to do the same thing to them.
The book fails however, because about 2/3 of its length is devoted to the sinking and exploration of the RMS Titanic for some obscure reason, and to clones of Jesus and Buddha philosophizing with some other survivors inside Neptune or something. After a fantastic, explosive beginning, the book just headed into WTF territory.
The book fails however, because about 2/3 of its length is devoted to the sinking and exploration of the RMS Titanic for some obscure reason, and to clones of Jesus and Buddha philosophizing with some other survivors inside Neptune or something. After a fantastic, explosive beginning, the book just headed into WTF territory.
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Super Parker Brothers
Banned
Where woul they fin the DNA. dan my d and question mark are jammed. any suggestions how to fix
I'm not surprised about the Titanic bit-Pellegrino is fascinated and has written several (quite good) non-fiction books on it. Though why he felt the need to slip it into the book is beyond me. Shame, I was thinking of reading that.
I will join the TL-191 Chorus here I guess. HFR was good and set the tone but everything after that just just meshed things from OTL and shoehorned them into his story. I mean really considering the overwhelming advantage in industry the Union had over the Confederacy even during the Civil War, then 20 years later with that much more industry and talent they *still* get beaten by the CSA? Of course HT has this more or less circumvented by "The U.S had crummy generals, the CSA had God-granted powers of excellence with theirs" Anyways I better leave it at that or this will become a rant lol
Anyways I better leave it at that or this will become a rant lolelkarlo
Banned
I was at the bookstore today, and saw the Atlantis book. Man Tutledove is stale. He really hasn't brought anything new to the AH table in a good 8 years or so. I doubt I'll read any of his stuff anymore =C
I will join the TL-191 Chorus here I guess. HFR was good and set the tone but everything after that just just meshed things from OTL and shoehorned them into his story. I mean really considering the overwhelming advantage in industry the Union had over the Confederacy even during the Civil War, then 20 years later with that much more industry and talent they *still* get beaten by the CSA? Of course HT has this more or less circumvented by "The U.S had crummy generals, the CSA had God-granted powers of excellence with theirs"
Oh yeah it got more ridiculous in World War One. I mean sixty years of industrial growth and the US still takes three years to grind the confederates.
Lycaon pictus
Donor
Turtledove's Atlantis. Forgive me if this post is too long and threadjacky, but I can remain silent no longer.
1. Forget the Phoenicians and the Vikings. Here's a place that's within three weeks sailing from Europe, is discovered in the mid-15th century and isn't monopolized by the Spanish. Here are just some of the waves of immigrants it could have seen:
Germans fleeing the aftermath of the Peasant War.
Germans fleeing the Thirty Years War.
Huguenots fleeing Louis XIV.
If any of these people settled in Atlantis, they didn't tell Turtledove about it.
2. At first, all we learn about the teachings of the House of Universal Devotion is that God loves us all and wants teenage girls to get busy with dirty old men. I was expecting to find out that "the Preacher" was William Blake, teaching the gospel of the Four Zoas, which would have been Crazy Awesome. Instead, I found out… not a damn thing.
3. Remember that guy in the black cape at the beginning of the third book? He's all like "I am a Secret Agent!!!" and then he just disappears and we never hear from him again. Didn't Chekhov say something like "Never introduce a Highly Visible Ninja in Part One unless he's going to off somebody by the end of the book"?
4. The Atlantean Army in Book Three. Led by two guys who command on alternate days, who have radically different agendas, and both of them are lifelong civilians? I know it's kind of like how the Romans used to do it, but there's a reason why they stopped. Twelve legions of angels with flaming swords and AK-47s couldn't win a war like this.
5. Speaking of the comedy duo Newton & Stafford… I swear every single conversation between them goes the same: "WAAAH! I WANT MY SLAVES!" "You can't have any slaves!" "BUT I WANT THEM!" "But they want to be free." "I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY WANT!" "But you have to care what they want, because they have guns now." Seriously, do either of these guys have families? Hobbies? Favorite sports? Secret sexual longings for each other? Anything to talk about other than rehashing the same ground over and over and over again?
There were moments when if Sam Carsten had popped in to complain about his sunburn, I would have breathed a sigh of relief.
6. And finally — I can't believe I forgot this — in four hundred years of settlement, not one person ever thought of DOMESTICATING honkers???
1. Forget the Phoenicians and the Vikings. Here's a place that's within three weeks sailing from Europe, is discovered in the mid-15th century and isn't monopolized by the Spanish. Here are just some of the waves of immigrants it could have seen:
Germans fleeing the aftermath of the Peasant War.
Germans fleeing the Thirty Years War.
Huguenots fleeing Louis XIV.
If any of these people settled in Atlantis, they didn't tell Turtledove about it.
2. At first, all we learn about the teachings of the House of Universal Devotion is that God loves us all and wants teenage girls to get busy with dirty old men. I was expecting to find out that "the Preacher" was William Blake, teaching the gospel of the Four Zoas, which would have been Crazy Awesome. Instead, I found out… not a damn thing.
3. Remember that guy in the black cape at the beginning of the third book? He's all like "I am a Secret Agent!!!" and then he just disappears and we never hear from him again. Didn't Chekhov say something like "Never introduce a Highly Visible Ninja in Part One unless he's going to off somebody by the end of the book"?
4. The Atlantean Army in Book Three. Led by two guys who command on alternate days, who have radically different agendas, and both of them are lifelong civilians? I know it's kind of like how the Romans used to do it, but there's a reason why they stopped. Twelve legions of angels with flaming swords and AK-47s couldn't win a war like this.
5. Speaking of the comedy duo Newton & Stafford… I swear every single conversation between them goes the same: "WAAAH! I WANT MY SLAVES!" "You can't have any slaves!" "BUT I WANT THEM!" "But they want to be free." "I DON'T CARE WHAT THEY WANT!" "But you have to care what they want, because they have guns now." Seriously, do either of these guys have families? Hobbies? Favorite sports? Secret sexual longings for each other? Anything to talk about other than rehashing the same ground over and over and over again?
There were moments when if Sam Carsten had popped in to complain about his sunburn, I would have breathed a sigh of relief.
6. And finally — I can't believe I forgot this — in four hundred years of settlement, not one person ever thought of DOMESTICATING honkers???
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Now that this thread's been resurrected, I'll offer other disappointing AH novels/series:
Harrison's East of Eden books and the Destroyermen books. Both feature extrapolations of the "what if dinosaurs never died out and one group evolved intelligence" concept that is a personal favorite of mine, but fail utterly to present this in a believable or interesting way, nor did they make use of available information about bird/dinosaur ties that could have led to a really interesting concept. At least I was able to read the Harrison books; Destroyermen was virtually unreadible.
Most of Conroy' book's (1901, 1942, 1945) were somewhat disappointing to me in one way or another. They weren't actually bad, per se, but they just seemed slapped together...at least he could tell stories in one volume that would take Turtledove 2 or 3 volumes and three times more characters.
All of the "What If" anthologies or other supposedly "serious" speculations about alternate outcomes. Most of the chapters in these books are not AH. but discussions of real battles/events with just a little speculation thrown in at the end. Although a few of the articles are are interesting speculations (usually those dealing with ancient or religious history), in general these anthologies contain just bad histories by second-rate historians who have no other way to get published than write about El Alamein with a few minor "what ifs" touched on and not followed up.
Harrison's East of Eden books and the Destroyermen books. Both feature extrapolations of the "what if dinosaurs never died out and one group evolved intelligence" concept that is a personal favorite of mine, but fail utterly to present this in a believable or interesting way, nor did they make use of available information about bird/dinosaur ties that could have led to a really interesting concept. At least I was able to read the Harrison books; Destroyermen was virtually unreadible.
Most of Conroy' book's (1901, 1942, 1945) were somewhat disappointing to me in one way or another. They weren't actually bad, per se, but they just seemed slapped together...at least he could tell stories in one volume that would take Turtledove 2 or 3 volumes and three times more characters.
All of the "What If" anthologies or other supposedly "serious" speculations about alternate outcomes. Most of the chapters in these books are not AH. but discussions of real battles/events with just a little speculation thrown in at the end. Although a few of the articles are are interesting speculations (usually those dealing with ancient or religious history), in general these anthologies contain just bad histories by second-rate historians who have no other way to get published than write about El Alamein with a few minor "what ifs" touched on and not followed up.
Man After Man : An Anthropology of the Future by Dougal Dixon. Great (even though hard to work with) premise, but once it leaves the fairly plausible near-future stuff (cca 100-300 years), it goes completely bananas and shows so many signs of Hollywood Evolution syndrome (tm), that it isn't even funny. I didn't mind the grotesqnuess of the human-descended species from the last chapters (set 3 million years in the future), nothing shocking - because the earlier chapters (set only 3 or 4 millenia from the present day) completely shattered my willing suspension of disbelief.
See my full review/rant here.
After Man and The New Dinosaurs were far better specu-bio thought experiments, even though they're kind of outdated now in several aspects and some of the imagined species are not up to standard to the majority of those presented. Dixon apparently can't resist his urge to go from "stunningly plausible extrapolation" to "pulp sci-fi weird-for-weirdness sake illogical crap". Sigh.
See my full review/rant here.
After Man and The New Dinosaurs were far better specu-bio thought experiments, even though they're kind of outdated now in several aspects and some of the imagined species are not up to standard to the majority of those presented. Dixon apparently can't resist his urge to go from "stunningly plausible extrapolation" to "pulp sci-fi weird-for-weirdness sake illogical crap". Sigh.
F. Paul Wilson's The Keep. Let's start out with a book involving both Nazis and an ancient evil preying on said Nazis staying in its keep, and turn it into a book between good and evil as well as throw in a love story! What the Fuck? I got about two thirds of the way through the book, and had to force myself to finish it.
Clibanarius
Banned
THIS.
I thought it was going to be a really cool vampire and then he jumped the shark.
It's even worse than you know: allegedly, Dixon stole the idea from Wayne Barlowe, who was going create a similar project. After the theft, Barlowe gave up (though not without some litigation, I believe), so we never got to see it in its completed form. While I don't know if Barlowe could have done any better than Dixon, his other works are quite surperb (Expedition comes to mind).
Yes.
I think I read about a dispute between the two back in the 80s.EDIT : To add to all the unintended silliness and "missing the mark" bits of this book, it even got reviewed on a site specializing in horror literature. Speaks for everything, I guess...
Well, at least it found a proverbial "misaimed fandom".
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For Want of a Nail: If Burgoyne had won at Saratoga
It had a plausable POD (as mentioned in title), but the book just got more generic, and frankly stupid as it went on.
The beginning was decent. The Confederation of North America (CNA) was a cool idea and it seemed relatively plausable.
Several founding fathers fled to Texas ( in the book it is called Jefferson) and gradually the state becomes stronger under the rule of Andrew Jackson. Eventually Jackson intervenes in the Mexican civil war, and ultimately annexes mexico.Thus the Unites States of Mexico (USM) is created. (The CNA abolishes slavery by compensation in the eraly 1800's)
This is the beginning of a "cold war" that the CNA and the USM are engaged in north america. Mexico goes through several dictatorships, and abolishes slavery in the 1890's. Mexico during it's first dictatorship invades Alaska, central america, and siberia.
The great war happens, and leads to a 2nd great war. The 2nd great war ends with mexico once again as a dictatorship, and the war is ended by a ceasefire. All sides are ready to return to war within several years.
The Kramer Associates is a company that after fleeing Mexico goes to Tiawan; where it is the first power to detonate an atomic bomb.
That is pretty much the book. Sorry to spoil the book for those who wanted to read it. (unfortunately i wasted my money on this terrible book!!)
To sum up my post, I stopped liking the book about page 100. The book was about 400 pages. Please dont waste your money like I did!!!
Wishing you well, his majesty,
The Scandinavian Emperor
It had a plausable POD (as mentioned in title), but the book just got more generic, and frankly stupid as it went on.
The beginning was decent. The Confederation of North America (CNA) was a cool idea and it seemed relatively plausable.
Several founding fathers fled to Texas ( in the book it is called Jefferson) and gradually the state becomes stronger under the rule of Andrew Jackson. Eventually Jackson intervenes in the Mexican civil war, and ultimately annexes mexico.Thus the Unites States of Mexico (USM) is created. (The CNA abolishes slavery by compensation in the eraly 1800's)
This is the beginning of a "cold war" that the CNA and the USM are engaged in north america. Mexico goes through several dictatorships, and abolishes slavery in the 1890's. Mexico during it's first dictatorship invades Alaska, central america, and siberia.
The great war happens, and leads to a 2nd great war. The 2nd great war ends with mexico once again as a dictatorship, and the war is ended by a ceasefire. All sides are ready to return to war within several years.
The Kramer Associates is a company that after fleeing Mexico goes to Tiawan; where it is the first power to detonate an atomic bomb.
That is pretty much the book. Sorry to spoil the book for those who wanted to read it. (unfortunately i wasted my money on this terrible book!!
)To sum up my post, I stopped liking the book about page 100. The book was about 400 pages. Please dont waste your money like I did!!!
Wishing you well, his majesty,
The Scandinavian Emperor
The Golden Compass as well for that matter; its basically one massive athesist rant, which is about as tiring as Left Behind.
The problem with Conroy is that he can't write fiction, at all. His dialogue sounds like it was cobbled by Tom Clancy, minus the painful erections over military hardware. As a hypothetical scenario, his stuff is just fine, but once he starts making it into a novel - everyone in it talks about as naturally as John Wayne in The Conqueror.
I enjoyed his books for the premise and the scenarios arising out of them, but once he tries his hand at humanizing historical figures, or worse giving them romances, it turns bad, real fast. The low light is the lesbian rape scene in 1862, culminating in Pinkerton being a peeping tom. What is that doing in the novel about British intervention in the Civil War? No, seriously. Why is it there? What purpose does it serve? How does it advance the plot or teach us about anything, except that all well educated French women are omnisexual evil sluts?