'Bomber' Harris and his bomb

Looks to be a larger version of the Vickers Windsor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_Windsor

Vickers_Windsor.jpg


The advantage with the Alston (the name I gave to the developed 684, named after the town of Alston which is one of the highest in England, so both fitting and alliterative), is that it's largely built with off the shelf components, thus speeding development time.
 
Looks to be a larger version of the Vickers Windsor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_Windsor

Vickers_Windsor.jpg


The advantage with the Alston (the name I gave to the developed 684, named after the town of Alston which is one of the highest in England, so both fitting and alliterative), is that it's largely built with off the shelf components, thus speeding development time.
Have the crew name it "Victoria" and give new meaning to the phrase "We are not amused" as that would be the signal to drop the first atomic bomb on Berlin.
 
I couldn't find the British version of the USSBS online. If you can let me know.


You'd probably have to change Churchill and who his science advisor was. Lindemann was pushing city bombing and Churchill was brought around to it, which meant they found the proponent of it in the RAF BC and promoted him in 1942. Of course I think that Bomber Harris would have done what he was ordered, so if tasked with say finding another target besides cities he would have followed orders.
I could only find one short chapter in a general WW2 history that's relevant.

It suggests that initially the oil industry was the priority strategic target for Bomber Command. Together with general attacks on industrial areas when bad weather prevented "precision attacks".By late 1941 the railway network became another priority.

The poor performance of Bomber Command in finding the right city, let alone bombing a precision target, of course led to the area bombing strategy from 1942.

However I think that with the prospect of damaging key targets more easily, the rail network would be seen as priority. Perhaps power as well, given the motives for the Dambusters raid.

Sbiper quoted an extensive bibliography in his TL, " And they shall reap the whirlwind". Perhaps one of those sources would be useful?

Or just PM him for advice.
 
Well if I were Bomber Harris, I imagine the closest and most important target is the industrial cities of the Ruhr Valley. And for maximum shock effect, wait until we have 3 bombs ready. Then drop one each on central Essen, Cologne and Aachen, in the middle of a bomber stream heading to each of course so they don't just get shot down.

That should pretty thoroughly wreck the German industrial base. Coal, steel, artillery all out of commission. And put a huge hole in their rail net making it hard for them to move troops to France if we do a landing.
 
Bomb the oil targets - they are big (= no need for pin-point accuracy), expensive (= Germany will be hard pressed to repair them or make new factories), and produce/house the scarce commodities.
Would we win the war? For Soviets, probably.

The only issue with this is that Harris hated what he referred to as "Panacea" targets that if hit might shorten the war, and he included oil targets in that description. He saw them as unjustified diversions that diverted effort from his area campaign against german cities.

. Of course I think that Bomber Harris would have done what he was ordered, so if tasked with say finding another target besides cities he would have followed orders.


Harris following orders isn't a certainty. He ignored directives he didn't like or only paid token attention to them, and was effectively rogue by the turn of 1944-45. It was deemed too politically costly to fire him though.
 
Shackleton wings and engines, homecast copy of the Aeroclub Shackleton MR2 ailerons, homecast resin spinners (from what I honestly don't know but I suspect a copy of the Maintrack Wyvern TF1 conversion), homecast resin Lincoln tailfins, homecast resin Lancastrian nose and tail cones. Fuselage and tailplanes Revell Lancaster, bulged bomb door Hasegawa Lancaster and remote control ventral turret and fairing Airfix. Finally, Airfix Vulcan canopy.

Plus a lot of P38 car body filler, normal filler and elbow grease!

I'm planning a second, but will use a set of donated Airfix Shackleton parts for the wings and engines.
 

Derek Pullem

Kicked
Donor
Dambusters raid was May 1943. If Barnes Wallace has been busy with his Victory bombers possibly first use will be the Ruhr dams
 
Imagine its 1942, the Yanks aren't in the war and it doesn't look much like their going to be, it hard to see the Russians turning the tables on old Fritz long before 1950 and Britain's invasion of Germany is about as near as its moon landing. You are the titular 'bomber' and are told of a secret british weapon; a new kind of bomb, each one 5x or greater the explosive power of the whole halifax explosion, carriable perhaps, at a stretch of 2 to a craft in the latest RAF heavy bombers. The first one should be ready by the very end of 1943, and by the next summer will be being produced at a rate of 2 every month.

What's you plan to win the war?


(this is the information Harris has and believes to be true, the plausibility of such a scenario can of course be questioned but this time is not really the point of this thread)


Feel feel to role play Mr Harris or not and have fun.

it is 1942 and Britain and the empire are alone. The only way we can fight back is via the bomber. Harris thought bombing would win the war and he thought the destruction of German cities was the tool to deliver that result. He is simply going to do more and more of that. He will want more and more planes, bombs and men and will want to use his new weapons to do that. I doubt the promise of a wonder weapon would be of much interest to him until it had been shown to work. Until then he is going to pound German cities. After that he is going to pound German cities but with bigger bombs!

On the specifics: If you are talking about a British Manhattan project Harris would have used it on a city as part of his on going campaign. If you are talking about super tall boys he would have dropped them on a German city. If you are talking about a super grand Slam bomb Harris would have dropped that on a German city. Then he would have dropped a load of incendiaries to burn down what was left. That was his plan and he stuck to it.

The question is what could he have done differently. My view is that focus on POL, utilities, command and control, communication, transportation, food storage, manufacturing and, yes, cities would have delivered better results for the sacrifice the bomber crews were asked to make.

Just me but I would hesitate to use it on a population centre - but then that is morally ambiguous of me - particularly if by doing so it would end the war years earlier than it did and save countless millions of l

Not for Harris. He would have dropped it. Personally I have no issues with the bombing of German cities. They started it. They bombed cities all over Europe. They needed to face the reality of their actions. Would i have dropped an atomic bomb on Germany during WW2? Probably. If only because i doubt the effects were truly understood but also because it was a fight against evil and a fight we had to win.
 
Didn’t Bomber Command hit cities because until late in the war they didn’t have the accuracy to hit anything smaller?

At night at least anyway.
 

Deleted member 1487

Harris following orders isn't a certainty. He ignored directives he didn't like or only paid token attention to them, and was effectively rogue by the turn of 1944-45. It was deemed too politically costly to fire him though.
He didn't want to switch to oil in spring-summer 1944, but did with big results.

yep. Same as the "precision" attacks undertaken by the USAF by day.
Pardon? The USAAF was bombing during the day and was getting a LOT better results than the British prior to 1942/43.
 
Not for Harris. He would have dropped it. Personally I have no issues with the bombing of German cities. They started it. They bombed cities all over Europe. They needed to face the reality of their actions. Would i have dropped an atomic bomb on Germany during WW2? Probably. If only because i doubt the effects were truly understood but also because it was a fight against evil and a fight we had to win.

As I said Morally ambiguos of me - if it would have ended that hateful war months earlier it would be well worth the Blood gelt in the appaling math that we have to deal with in WW2
 

Derek Pullem

Kicked
Donor
Pardon? The USAAF was bombing during the day and was getting a LOT better results than the British prior to 1942/43.

?? They didn't start bombing in Europe until August 1942. And didn't hit Germany until January 1943 ??

By the time the Americans were regularly hitting targets in Germany (June 1943) the accuracy of British and American bombers were comparable for the targets they were aiming at. Now the American targets were usually much smaller and more specific than the area targets the British went for. But if we are talking about getting results then not attacking the primary enemy targets until mid 1943 cannot really be regarded as being more effective than whatever mediocre efforts the RAF had prior to this date.

What I will accept is that the accuracy of US daylight bombers was better than night-time RAF attacks. But effectiveness is a function of not only accuracy but number of attacks
 
As I said Morally ambiguos of me - if it would have ended that hateful war months earlier it would be well worth the Blood gelt in the appaling math that we have to deal with in WW2

I appreciate the position but I think the calculus at the time was fairly simple: Win. Win by any & all means. The only way you could rationailse all of those deaths is either to say they deserved it or they shortened the war thus saving millions more.
 

Deleted member 1487

?? They didn't start bombing in Europe until August 1942. And didn't hit Germany until January 1943 ??

By the time the Americans were regularly hitting targets in Germany (June 1943) the accuracy of British and American bombers were comparable for the targets they were aiming at. Now the American targets were usually much smaller and more specific than the area targets the British went for. But if we are talking about getting results then not attacking the primary enemy targets until mid 1943 cannot really be regarded as being more effective than whatever mediocre efforts the RAF had prior to this date.

What I will accept is that the accuracy of US daylight bombers was better than night-time RAF attacks. But effectiveness is a function of not only accuracy but number of attacks
And? They were bombing by day and didn't need the electronic guidance systems the British did at night to try and find their targets. By day the British didn't have problems finding targets, night bombing required special equipment to make viable in most cases (coastal targets were reasonably easy to find though depending on moonlight). The problems the US strategic bombing had was one of tactics and methods rather than technology, as you said they had a delayed learning curve compared to the British, though even as early as 1942 they were much more accurate than RAF BC city bombing, which was area bombing. You can't say that the targets the RAF and USAAF were aiming at were remotely comparable. The US was actually hitting and knocking out targets in 1942-43 of rail yard or factory size, while the RAF was area bombing entire cities with mixed results and required many more bombers (and special weather conditions) to achieve results. The bigger problem for the US was following up on targets, which they had a problem with in part due to the lack of long range escorts. Look at the 1943 raids on aircraft factories and ball bearings, they did serious damage, but because they weren't followed upon they didn't do enough to really put them out of action for an extended period of time.

The RAF of course had their special bomber units, which were getting excellent accuracy due to their special guidance equipment or flying low, like the Dam Busters, but then they were also a handpicked elite and had years of combat experience.

In terms of not attacking primary enemy targets...I'd say look at the losses the RAF suffered bombing France in 1941-42 with their Rhubarb and Circus missions and compare that to 8th Air Force losses against French targets in 1942, as well as the bombing results. In part though it isn't necessarily a totally fair comparison as the B17 was quite a bit different than the bombers the British were using during the day.

Accuracy is crucial, as number of attacks is meaningless without actually hitting the target. It's just that depending on the target multiple missions are needed to make sure the target stays bombed out, because most targets will be able to recover with sufficient time and resources. Still, the Mosquito got better results generally than the Lancaster did for less resources and losses due to the accuracy. That is unless we're talking about city bombing where tonnage counts or the use of Tall Boys and Grand Slams or bouncing bombs for the same reason.
 
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