Bolshevism "strangled in its cradle"

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
Winston Churchill declared that Bolshevism must be "strangled in its cradle" to ensure that Russia's debts were paid in full. Suppose that Britain accepted the Russian royals at court and went all out to prosecute the Russian Civil War on the side of The White Russians, led by the Tsar. What steps might Britain take?

Russian_civil_war_West_1918-20.png
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
Occupying the Dardanelles-Constantinople international zone would be a good start. Set the Tsar up in the 'Don Republic' and 'Kuban Republic' then head north for Moscow with the Cossacks supported by Ukraine? Work our way up the railways to Tula from Kharkov and Kiev (830 miles to Moscow from Sevastopol) and up to Ryazan from Rostov (640 miles to Moscow from Rostov). Then push across the Oka to Moscow and re-establish the monarchy. Azerbaijan and Georgia should cover our expenses and the debt (Baku oil), while keeping Russia out of the way at the same time. Armenia will be protected by our forces in Georgia/Baku and vice versa.

PostBrestLitovsk.GIF
 
Last edited:
Genuine map, I swear. Murmansk surprised you?

Well, it was not controlled by the Finnish government, but rather by a force opposed to it so it does stick out a bit depicted as a part of Finland. But the Finnish border was still, officially, to be negotiated with the Russians so I guess at this point cartographers had some leeway.
 
Close the Finland station

This would have been an unlikely and highly unpopular scenario, there is a difference between backing the Tsar who had been forcred to abdicate in March and opposing the Bolsheviks who siezed power in November (Ocotober if you use the Russian orthodox calendar). The Tsar was unpopular and there would have been very little public support for backing Tsarist Russia. The best way of strangling Bolshevism might have been to give some kind of support to Kerensky's government and to the Soviets before the Bolsheviks gained strength and when Lenin was a voice in the wilderness. What if the German's had been less short sighted, eased pressure on the Eastern front and refused to transport Lenin
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
This war doesn't have to be popular with everyone. Alexander Kerensky supported neither the White movement nor the Bolsheviks. The Tsar will unite the White cause under a monarchist doctrine. Ukrainia will be allowed autonomy in exchange for an alliance against the Red army. If the Black army make a move to betray us then hold the line and stabilise the Ukraine as part of White Russia before resuming the offensive.


British military and political advisors and military supplies is the way to fight this war. Britain need not commit her troops to an unpopular war. Ship out all the army surplus ( ammunition, .303 Enfield rifles, .303 Lewis LMG, Vickers .303 HMG, Mills Bombs, Stokes 3" trench mortar, 6-inch Newton Mortar, 2" Medium mortar, 9.45-inch Heavy Mortar 'The Flying Pig', 3.3" 18 pounder (horsedrawn), 4.5" 35lb Howitzer, 5" 60 pounder (12 horses), 9.2" heavy siege howitzer, Rolls Royce armoured cars and barbed wire ). The British Army have been meaning to switch over to a 0.256 cartridge since the war began, but were stuck with existing 0.303 stock. Ammunition factories can be set up in Rostov and Sevastopol.

The Armed Forces of South Russia (Вооружённые силы Юга России in Russian, or Vooruzhenniye sily Yuga Rossii) was the major White Russian force in the south of Russia during the Russian Civil War.
Formed on the 8th of January 1919, it incorporated many of the smaller formations of the White army in that area under them, including the Volunteer Army (which was renamed the Caucasian Volunteer Army). Besides the Volunteer Army, the ASFR included the Army of the Don, the Crimean-Azov Army, the Forces of Northern Caucasus and the Army of Turkestan.
In January it numbered 51,000 Infantry, 34,000 Cavalry, 204 Field guns, 682 machine guns and 6 armoured trains. By July 1919 it had grown to 104,000 Infantry, 56,000 Cavalry, 600 Field guns, 1,500 machine guns, 19 aircraft, 34 armoured trains, 1 Cruiser, 5 Destroyers, 4 Submarines and 20 Gunboats.
Slow them down. Retrain and rearm. Take and hold the south. Establish a fair and moderate government. Push for Moscow. The 34 armoured trains need 12 armour cars each (408 total) for scouting ahead and on the flanks. 3000 field guns is a realistic target, as is 7500 machine guns.

Let's change that to:

  • 50,000 Czechoslovaks (along the Trans-Siberian railway)
  • 28,000 Japanese, later increased to 70,000 (all in the Vladivostok region)
  • 24,000 Greeks (in Crimea)
  • 16,000 British (in the Crimea and Don regions)
  • 13,000 Americans (in the Crimea and Don regions)
  • 12,000 French and French colonial (mostly in the Ukraine/Odessa region)
  • 12,000 Poles (in the Ukraine and White Russia)
  • 4,000 Canadians (in the Arkhangelsk region)
  • 4,000 Serbs (in the Arkhangelsk region)
  • 4,000 Romanians (in the Arkhangelsk region)
  • 2,000 Italians (in the Arkhangelsk region)
  • 2,000 Chinese (in the Vladivostok region)
  • 560 Australians (in the Arkhangelsk region)
 
Last edited:

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
I wonder if how the Russo- Polish war would play out in this scenario. Personally I think an Absolutist Monarchy would never be able to control Russia after 1917 anymore, and whoever control Russia would need popular support at least the first few years while still consolidating power. (Also the monarchists never accepted the secession of Finland and the Baltic States, could be really messy).
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
I think that a Britain bankrolling the monarchists would steer things towards a constitutional monarchy. I found this march 1919 map that shows, historically, Britain had its sights set on the oilfields of Baku. All very well, but aside from defending arms stores in Archangel, the targets should be Moscow and Petrograd.

The Baltic states were under threat from supposed White Russians that were in fact puppets of the Germans. Poland came to peace separately with the Red army, leaving the White armies in the lurch. I don't know what might change that. Is it possible that Finland could be interested in gaining Archangel, Murmansk and the Kola Peninsula? That might allow a push south on the navally blockaded Petrograd.

ApproxPositionsRussianCivilWar1919.GIF
 
Last edited:

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
The reason the Finns didn't carried out the Mannerheim plan to intervene in the Russian civil war was because the Whites did not accept the Finnish secesssion. The Finns then decided to not bother and instead sign a peace treaty with the Reds to ensure their Eastern Borders.
 
I am a little confused as to how the Whites are "led by the Tsar" ?

At the VERY BEST for Nicholas, he is shut up in Tsarskoe Selo, but treated well. He's not got communications with the outside world, except by subterfuge, and he has already abdicated

Legally, his brother Grand Duke Michael is Tsar (since he never abdicated, but simply refused to accept the crown until it was confirmed by the Duma who ummed and erred and decided not to because they didn't want him). He might be in Perm, but again he has little ability to control any armies

White commanders include Judenich (in mid-late 1918 getting himself allied with Germany), Denikin and Kolchak

But if this is 1918, then the Germans and Austrians, and their allies, still garrison a great swathe of the country. If its 1919, then OK, but the situation for the Romanovs is worse...because they're dead

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Ah, I misunderstood what you said - "accepted the Russian royals at court" means gave asylum to the Tsar and his family ?

OK, that's potentially possible - the Kaiser would have let them through the Baltic, no problem, there. Its getting them out of Russia that's more problematic, but let's have Lvov or Kerensky arrange that

Now, you have an abdicated monarch and his family in London. Do you have Michael too ? Would he have been allowed to come considering that he is de jure Tsar ?

I have difficulty seeing the Whites fighting for Nicholas, but they might fight in Michael's name.

Even so, they are factions on the ground within the vastness of Russia, with their own agendas, and communication with Britain is going to be very hard. Nevertheless, let's insert the British government into the equation

IMHO it loses the Khaki Election, but if its more set on bashing the Bolsheviks than on retaining power, or social cohesion at home, then it has the resources to fight the war

But a victory in Russia COULD lead to a social and political revolution at home...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
Ah, I misunderstood what you said - "accepted the Russian royals at court" means gave asylum to the Tsar and his family ?

OK, that's potentially possible - the Kaiser would have let them through the Baltic, no problem, there. Its getting them out of Russia that's more problematic, but let's have Lvov or Kerensky arrange that

Now, you have an abdicated monarch and his family in London. Do you have Michael too ? Would he have been allowed to come considering that he is de jure Tsar ?

I have difficulty seeing the Whites fighting for Nicholas, but they might fight in Michael's name.

Even so, they are factions on the ground within the vastness of Russia, with their own agendas, and communication with Britain is going to be very hard. Nevertheless, let's insert the British government into the equation

IMHO it loses the Khaki Election, but if its more set on bashing the Bolsheviks than on retaining power, or social cohesion at home, then it has the resources to fight the war

But a victory in Russia COULD lead to a social and political revolution at home...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
All the Romanovs that could get out when the Tsar asked to come to Britain and was refused in OTL get out. That may include Micheal, I don't know.

The political culture imported to Britain by troops returning home will be limited to the Baku garrison* and officers attached to the White army. What sort of social and political revolution did you have in mind?

*this garrison existed in OTL so won't make any difference.
 
Last edited:

Hendryk

Banned
I'm interested in this discussion for reasons of my own: in "Superpower Empire", the Bolsheviks are unable to conquer Eastern Siberia because of a coalition between White Russian forces, the Czech Legion and a large Chinese expeditionary corps, and as a result the USSR only extends to the Yenisei river. There has been criticism about the plausibility of such a development, and I'd like to have input about that. Why assume that the Bolsheviks were unstoppable when the White forces managed to push back as far as Kazan, and the Poles managed to grab whole swathes of Russian territory?
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
In the end the Reds controlled the industrialized zone of Russia, if the war goes as bad for the whited that they are pushed back into Siberia, they have lost the war.
 
Regarding problems at home for Britain, I don't think that the government's reluctance to have the Tsar here was for scare-mongering reasons, but because they really DID fear the social impact of such an event

Trade unionism was by no means dead during the war, and though there was more compromise, it was still a time of strife. With the end of the war approaching, the events in Germany were not dependant on those in Russia - the uprisings etc were home-grown

The same tensions were arising in Britain, tho as ever the details escape what's left of my memory

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 

perfectgeneral

Donor
Monthly Donor
Is an alliance between Ukraine and White Russia possible?

Might it be possible that Churchill can bring Simon Petlyura and Anton Denikin together to resist the Bolsheviks? Allied help for Ukraine and a White Russia that recognises Poland, Ukraine and Finland might be enough to stablise the anti-bolshevik factions.
 
Might it be possible that Churchill can bring Simon Petlyura and Anton Denikin together to resist the Bolsheviks? Allied help for Ukraine and a White Russia that recognises Poland, Ukraine and Finland might be enough to stablise the anti-bolshevik factions.

But how? The White Russians showed no desire OTL to recognize any of those states...
 
Top