Bolshevik Diaspora

The Russian revolution crumbles, White Terror reigns free. The remaining radicals must flee before they too are strung up in counter-revolutionary justice. Where are the survivors of the radical elements - the Bolsheviks, the Left Social-Revolutionaries, the Anarchists and Syndacalist trade unionists - going to end up? And what effect on those regions are they going to have?

Historically, Nestor Makhno ended up in Paris and the likes of Trotsky ended up in Mexico (eventually) but say the Russian revolution is a complete failure what nations are going to accept large communities of radicals?
 
Large communities? Probably no one, all the nations bordering Russia are probably going to pretty unfriendly to commies. For a small number of high profile people? France and the UK are the most open and accepting.
 
Hmm, Mexico would definitely be the most appealing. Why is that? Well, Mexico already went through a Revolution of some type, so maybe - if one could forgive the heavy Russian accents coming through in the Bolsheviks' Spanish - there could be some cohesion to the Revolution there?
 
Some of them will probably end up in China, as with the White Russians IOTL. This could create some interesting knock-on effects/butterflies in the chaos in China, for sure.
 
Actually I've been pondering this myself as of late. If the Russian Civil War ends as OTL, its unlikely that the Bolsheviks would find any nations willing to take them in, in Europe at least. China, along with Latin America will be the likeliest destinations. Intellectuals will still gather in Paris, and I feel that any preceding regime of a White Russia, be it Kornilov, Kerensky or Kolchak, or hell, even Wagner, there will be a flow of scientists, artists and intelligentsia to London, Paris and possibly Berlin.
 
Wagner? Well at the national anthem stands a good chance of being suitably bombastic and striking. ;)
 
I actually think the likeliest place for them to go is somewhere remote in the former Russian realm. The Whites were much less unified than the Reds; take away their enemy and you likely get warlordism, or at least a relatively unstable and weak political body without much ability to launch attacks on a rump Red state. The Caucasus or Central Asia perhaps?
 
The Whites were much less unified

While yes, IOTL the whites were a fractured and rather vague alliance of despots and military forces, it is only logical to assume that they would be more organized in a world where they won the war. Im currently working on a timeline with a POD before the Kornilov Affair. I have Kornilov taking the lead in a shared role with Kerensky. If Kornilov had his way, then Lenin and much of the Petrograd Soviet would have been hung from the lampposts in the streets, resulting in a stillborn October Revolution. Kornilov desired to reestablish the death penalty in the military and operate independent of Government supervision. As such, he was very popular with the military. Now the Red Army will still form, but it will form largely like the White movement did in OTL, severed pockets operating autonomous of a central command center. The Whites will likely lose Moscow as soon as the Soviet are hung, if not after a week or so of fighting, but if Kornilov, supported by Kaledin's Cossacks, occupies the city, Petrograd should be able to remain secured.

Thats enough speculation for the moment. Best scene in Omega Man is on.
 
France. Everyone ended up in France sooner or later.
I was thinking France as well, to be honest. There were certainly plenty of Russian anarchists that ended up there in OTL. Do you think there would be enough of them or they would be integrated enough to effect the course of France's political future?
 
I was thinking France as well, to be honest. There were certainly plenty of Russian anarchists that ended up there in OTL. Do you think there would be enough of them or they would be integrated enough to effect the course of France's political future?

They could affect the course of French political future. But it would depend on who was there and whether they choose to get involved in French politics.
 
I was thinking France as well, to be honest. There were certainly plenty of Russian anarchists that ended up there in OTL. Do you think there would be enough of them or they would be integrated enough to effect the course of France's political future?

Not anymore then the Whites did OTL. Which is to say very little. The biggest knock on wood effect of a White Russia is no Rosenberg and no Scheubner-Richter to aid Hitler in his early stages meaning, he very well could've become a somewhat more radical Held.
 
Actually quite right, I meant to type Wrangel.
Yeah I assumed you meant wrangel and that it was a mental slip or autocorrect if using a phone to post as I couldn't remember any prominent White leaders called Wagner, just couldn't resist the mental image is threw up though. :)
 
Yeah I assumed you meant wrangel and that it was a mental slip or autocorrect if using a phone to post as I couldn't remember any prominent White leaders called Wagner, just couldn't resist the mental image is threw up though. :)

Yeah, autocirrect is a bitch, because it totally made me wonder if there was a Wagner in the White movement. I was almost sure there was a Russian general by the name of Wagner at least during the Great War but I couldn't summon anything and as a result realized that I had made a most grievous error.
 

Cook

Banned
The biggest knock on wood effect of a White Russia is...
A White Russia changes the entire political and diplomatic landscape of Europe. France would still have a powerful ally against Germany in the east and Eastern Europe would not be faced with an expansionist Bolshevik state, consequently the French would not establish the Cordon Sanitaire alliances with Poland and Rumania to contain Russia, remaining instead allied with Russia.

In the first decade of the twentieth century French investors had pumped enormous amounts of money into Tsarist Russia, and this had seen Russia’s economy attain the fastest growth rate in Europe in the years leading up to the First World War. Then during the war the French loaned the Russian government more than US$2.5 Billion. The Bolsheviks refused to repay both the private French investments as well as the massive war loans. They also published secret diplomatic cables that had been sent between the Allies and Tsarist Russia that were highly embarrassing to the allied governments. This permanently soured relations between the two great powers and resulted in hostility and mistrust between them when they later tried to form a united front against Hitler.

A non-Bolshevik Russia would have been intent on remaining integrated to the international economy and diplomatic community. I say non-Bolshevik rather than White Russian because if the Greens had won their civil war against the Reds the result would have been the same; the Green parties drew their inspiration from French Liberalism, saw the value of foreign financial investment and were not intent on exporting a Leninist revolution to the world. So depending on how quickly they won the civil war, a White Russia could possibly have had representation at the Paris Peace Conference, but even failing that they would certainly have been a founding and active member of the League of Nations, strengthening that institution.

A White Russia means no Communist International, at least not one directed from and operating principally to the benefit of Moscow; the fear of the ‘Red Menace’ would be enormously reduced. It was fear of Bolshevik revolutionaries under every bed that gave the various violent reactionary movements (fascist and ultra-nationalist) such an enormous boost.

Another thing to consider; prior to World War One Russia was one of the world’s main wheat exporters. When Turkey closed the Dardanelles Straights, that export was halted, that combined with the destruction and disruption from the World War followed by Civil War devastated Russia’s wheat exports and because Russia was no longer integrated with the global financial system they were unable to attain loans from their former allies to allow for rapid recovery; Russia lost their major position in the world wheat market for decades. The consequence if this was a massive increase in the world price for wheat during World War One and in the 1920s; this saw an enormous increase in wheat farming in the United States, especially in areas that had previously been considered too climactically poor for anything but cattle grazing. Huge areas of grassland in Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska were turned over by ploughs for the first time. When at the start of the Great Depression the price of wheat collapsed, the wheat farmers in these areas responded by increasing production, hoping to make up for the drop in the value of what they were producing by producing more overall; so at the start of the 1930s an enormous area of very marginal grassland had been turned over to wheat production. Then drought struck. The drought combined with terrible agricultural practices saw the topsoil blow away and resulted in a huge region of the American heartland being relabelled ‘The dustbowl’. It is worth considering that with recovering Russian wheat exports in the mid-1920s, the price of wheat would never have reached the heights it did and the demand for American wheat would not have been as great; cattle grazing country would not have been turned over to wheat and the topsoil would not have been consequently destabilised; when drought came there would not have been the devastating dust storms of the 1930s.

Lenin said that ‘everything is connected to everything else’ and in a very real sense he was right.
 
A White Russia changes the entire political and diplomatic landscape of Europe. France would still have a powerful ally against Germany in the east and Eastern Europe would not be faced with an expansionist Bolshevik state, consequently the French would not establish the Cordon Sanitaire alliances with Poland and Rumania to contain Russia, remaining instead allied with Russia.

In the first decade of the twentieth century French investors had pumped enormous amounts of money into Tsarist Russia, and this had seen Russia’s economy attain the fastest growth rate in Europe in the years leading up to the First World War. Then during the war the French loaned the Russian government more than US$2.5 Billion. The Bolsheviks refused to repay both the private French investments as well as the massive war loans. They also published secret diplomatic cables that had been sent between the Allies and Tsarist Russia that were highly embarrassing to the allied governments. This permanently soured relations between the two great powers and resulted in hostility and mistrust between them when they later tried to form a united front against Hitler.

A non-Bolshevik Russia would have been intent on remaining integrated to the international economy and diplomatic community. I say non-Bolshevik rather than White Russian because if the Greens had won their civil war against the Reds the result would have been the same; the Green parties drew their inspiration from French Liberalism, saw the value of foreign financial investment and were not intent on exporting a Leninist revolution to the world. So depending on how quickly they won the civil war, a White Russia could possibly have had representation at the Paris Peace Conference, but even failing that they would certainly have been a founding and active member of the League of Nations, strengthening that institution.

A White Russia means no Communist International, at least not one directed from and operating principally to the benefit of Moscow; the fear of the ‘Red Menace’ would be enormously reduced. It was fear of Bolshevik revolutionaries under every bed that gave the various violent reactionary movements (fascist and ultra-nationalist) such an enormous boost.

Another thing to consider; prior to World War One Russia was one of the world’s main wheat exporters. When Turkey closed the Dardanelles Straights, that export was halted, that combined with the destruction and disruption from the World War followed by Civil War devastated Russia’s wheat exports and because Russia was no longer integrated with the global financial system they were unable to attain loans from their former allies to allow for rapid recovery; Russia lost their major position in the world wheat market for decades. The consequence if this was a massive increase in the world price for wheat during World War One and in the 1920s; this saw an enormous increase in wheat farming in the United States, especially in areas that had previously been considered too climactically poor for anything but cattle grazing. Huge areas of grassland in Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska were turned over by ploughs for the first time. When at the start of the Great Depression the price of wheat collapsed, the wheat farmers in these areas responded by increasing production, hoping to make up for the drop in the value of what they were producing by producing more overall; so at the start of the 1930s an enormous area of very marginal grassland had been turned over to wheat production. Then drought struck. The drought combined with terrible agricultural practices saw the topsoil blow away and resulted in a huge region of the American heartland being relabelled ‘The dustbowl’. It is worth considering that with recovering Russian wheat exports in the mid-1920s, the price of wheat would never have reached the heights it did and the demand for American wheat would not have been as great; cattle grazing country would not have been turned over to wheat and the topsoil would not have been consequently destabilised; when drought came there would not have been the devastating dust storms of the 1930s.

Lenin said that ‘everything is connected to everything else’ and in a very real sense he was right.
Cook, while I not only look forward to answering this in an appropriate manner, but also reading, I only meant the immediate effect. Obviously the butterflies of a White Russia are at least in my opinion, delicious.
 
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