Bog, Vozhd, Rodina - The History of the All-Russian People’s State

Who do you think it’s the Vozhd gonna be ?


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You are right in some respects, but the level of sadism required to exterminate a whole ethnic group is thankfully extremely high. Another thing to consider is that all mass murdering regimes of the 20C were officially atheist regimes(Nazi Germany, USSR, PRC, Cambodia etc.) I have a hard time imagining a superstitious russian muzhik(the Vozhd's presumed support base?) mannin camps where they funnel human beings to their death. What I'm saying is that Nazism, or Communism can in certain circumstances justify mass death, but Christianity never can, nor Islam etc etc. I dont know maybe Im wrong but thats my thoughts.
Eh, Nazi Germany wasn't atheist. USSR, PRC and Cambodia definitely were, but Nazi Germany literally had many clerical supporters.
 
You are right in some respects, but the level of sadism required to exterminate a whole ethnic group is thankfully extremely high. Another thing to consider is that all mass murdering regimes of the 20C were officially atheist regimes(Nazi Germany, USSR, PRC, Cambodia etc.) I have a hard time imagining a superstitious russian muzhik(the Vozhd's presumed support base?) mannin camps where they funnel human beings to their death. What I'm saying is that Nazism, or Communism can in certain circumstances justify mass death, but Christianity never can, nor Islam etc etc. I dont know maybe Im wrong but thats my thoughts.
Hides Tsarist Pogroms behind the corner.
 
You are right in some respects, but the level of sadism required to exterminate a whole ethnic group is thankfully extremely high. Another thing to consider is that all mass murdering regimes of the 20C were officially atheist regimes(Nazi Germany, USSR, PRC, Cambodia etc.) I have a hard time imagining a superstitious russian muzhik(the Vozhd's presumed support base?) mannin camps where they funnel human beings to their death. What I'm saying is that Nazism, or Communism can in certain circumstances justify mass death, but Christianity never can, nor Islam etc etc. I dont know maybe Im wrong but thats my thoughts.
Then again there were plenty of anti-Semitic pogroms in Russia just look as Kishinev (Chisinau) for instance.
 
You are right in some respects, but the level of sadism required to exterminate a whole ethnic group is thankfully extremely high. Another thing to consider is that all mass murdering regimes of the 20C were officially atheist regimes(Nazi Germany, USSR, PRC, Cambodia etc.) I have a hard time imagining a superstitious russian muzhik(the Vozhd's presumed support base?) mannin camps where they funnel human beings to their death. What I'm saying is that Nazism, or Communism can in certain circumstances justify mass death, but Christianity never can, nor Islam etc etc. I dont know maybe Im wrong but thats my thoughts.
Unfortunately, some of these considerations would not work.

To be on a practical side, "russian muzhik" mostly inhabited the areas where there were few Germans, Poles and Jews so his relevance would be somewhat limited even if his antisemitism is undeniable. But, even within a nationalistic state, there would be numerous other nationalities which Vozhd would have to include and some of them were located in the "right" places.

For example Kishinev (Chisinau) was not, AFAIK, exactly a town with a predominantly Russian population and initiator of pogrom of 1903, Pavel Cruşeveanu , was a Moldavian with a triggering event being a murder of the Ukrainian boy in which the Jews had been accused. Rather ironically, pogrom of 1905 started with the anti-regime demonstrations).

With the Pale still in place, most of the Jewish population lived in the former Polish territories and in what is now Ukraine. During the RCW most of the pogroms had been conducted by Petlura forces (Ukrainian nationalists) or so-called "greens" (local bands with no political affiliation) who were predominantly Ukrainians (and had history of pogroms going back to the Cossack Wars of the XVII century, period of 1648-49 sometimes referenced as the "holocaust" in which up to 100,000 had been killed https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/chmielnicki-khmelnitski-bogdan-x00b0). On the top of it approximately 5,000 Jews had been killed by the Volunteer Army (not too many "muzhiks" there) and various Red troops (some "russian muzhiks" there).

By some accounts in 1918-20 in Ukraine there were approximately 1,500 pogroms with between 50 and 200,000 killed or died from the wounds and approximately 200,000 wounded or crippled. By another source, breakdown of the pogroms looks as following: 40% - Ukrainian nationalists, 25% - "greens", 17% - Whites, 8.5% - Reds. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Еврейские_погромы_во_время_Гражданской_войны_в_России#Общий_обзор

So if Vozhd is controlling Ukraine and the local nationalists, he would have enough of a support base to accomplish a genocide without being atheistic.

Then, look at the Bolshevik practices: the initial mass killings of the "class enemies" (most of them Orthodox) had been conducted by the people who did not yet had time to be subjected to any serious anti-religious propaganda (they started immediately after the October coup and probably even slightly earlier). So why would these " muzhiks" be excessively sensitive about the perceived enemies who belonged to the "wrong" religion?
 
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Eh, Nazi Germany wasn't atheist. USSR, PRC and Cambodia definitely were, but Nazi Germany literally had many clerical supporters.
What I mean is that National Socialism as an ideology is atheist, the implication being that the idiology itself justified the mass murder of Jews. The clerical supporters of nazi germany definitely didn't support the holocaust, which was largely kept secret from the German public.
 
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To be on a practical side, "russian muzhik" mostly inhabited the areas where there were few Germans, Poles and Jews so his relevance would be somewhat limited.

With the Pale still in place, most of the Jewish population lived in the former Polish territories and in what is now Ukraine. During the RCW most of the pogroms had been conducted by Petlura forces (Ukrainian nationalists) or so-called "greens" (local bands with no political affiliation) who were predominantly Ukrainians (and had history of pogroms going back to the Cossack Wars of the XVII century, period of 1648-49 sometimes referenced as the "holocaust" in which up to 100,000 had been killed https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/chmielnicki-khmelnitski-bogdan-x00b0). On the top of it approximately 5,000 Jews had been killed by the Volunteer Army (not too many "muzhiks" there) and various Red troops (some "russian muzhiks" there).

By some accounts in 1918-20 in Ukraine there were approximately 1,500 pogroms with between 50 and 200,000 killed or died from the wounds and approximately 200,000 wounded or crippled. By another source, breakdown of the pogroms looks as following: 40% - Ukrainian nationalists, 25% - "greens", 17% - Whites, 8.5% - Reds. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Еврейские_погромы_во_время_Гражданской_войны_в_России#Общий_обзор

So if Vozhd is controlling Ukraine and the local nationalists, he would have enough of a support base to accomplish a genocide without being atheistic.

Then, look at the Bolshevik practices: the initial mass killings of the "class enemies" (most of them Orthodox) had been conducted by the people who did not yet had time to be subjected to any serious anti-religious propaganda (they started immediately after the October coup and probably even slightly earlier). So why would these " muzhiks" be excessively sensitive about the perceived enemies who belonged to the "wrong" religion?
Good point, I see the potential for genocide especially in Ukraine, especially the Vozhd embraces the Ukrainians.
 
Good point, I see the potential for genocide especially in Ukraine, especially the Vozhd embraces the Ukrainians.
He would have no choice unless he is ready to lose a big chunk of a productive territory. How exactly this could be done depends upon the specifics of the TL which we don not know, yet. Of course, as permanent or long term loss is also possible if the Central Powers are winning the war but short of that I doubt that any arrangement would be permanent.
 

Ulyanovsk

Donor
What I'm saying is that Nazism, or Communism can in certain circumstances justify mass death, but Christianity never can, nor Islam etc etc. I dont know maybe Im wrong but thats my thoughts.
I find this incredibly suspect personally, given what religious European societies did in the Americas and Africa and butchered extremely large groups of people in both long term expansion and short term periods of massacre - specifically things like the Belgian Congo where limbs were hacked off and people were worked to death, or the Spanish silver mines in which indigenous people were whipped and forced to work until they essentially dropped, or the German annihilation of ethnic groups in Namibia, American massacres of indigenous people, the list is really too much to count and spans centuries. Radicalized and "officially atheist" societies committed mass murder because of very specific reasons and conditions, just as every society does, and it almost never boils down to faith in religion.

Also this ignores things like the rabidity of the pogroms before and during the Russian Civil War, that claimed the lives of up to hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the former Russian Empire. Granted this wasn't systematic, but there certainly was the sadism for it present in right wing circles in Russia - the faith in God hardly prevented them from raping and murdering those they viewed as an out group.

I fail to see why a supposedly religious society is unable to embark on mass murder, lack of sadism is certainly not the case given the absolute brutality in exterminating entire groups of people we have seen many many times over the centuries - religion usually supplements the violence with some sort of justification in fact..

EDIT: for some reason the immediate replies didn't show up for me, I didn't mean to beat a dead horse - take my 2¢ anyway I suppose
 
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You are right in some respects, but the level of sadism required to exterminate a whole ethnic group is thankfully extremely high. Another thing to consider is that all mass murdering regimes of the 20C were officially atheist regimes(Nazi Germany, USSR, PRC, Cambodia etc.) I have a hard time imagining a superstitious russian muzhik(the Vozhd's presumed support base?) mannin camps where they funnel human beings to their death. What I'm saying is that Nazism, or Communism can in certain circumstances justify mass death, but Christianity never can, nor Islam etc etc. I dont know maybe Im wrong but thats my thoughts.
Iron Guards inside Romania would like to have a word with you
 
Also this ignores things like the rabidity of the pogroms before and during the Russian Civil War, that claimed the lives of up to hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the former Russian Empire. Granted this wasn't systematic, but there certainly was the sadism for it present in right wing circles in Russia - the faith in God hardly prevented them from raping and murdering those they viewed as an out group.
I’m not sure what the “right wing” had to do with the pogroms during the RCW because most of it had been committed by the Ukrainian nationalists and quite a few of them, like Gregoriev , had been rather to the “left” in whatever could pass for their ideology (in the case of the “greens” any ideology was absent). Both the Reds and Whites had been involved in them. OTOH, the most expected suspect, Makhno, not only was not involved in anything of the kind but was maintaining the Jewish self-defense units on the territory he controlled and rejected alliance with Grigoriev based on pogroms issue. Needless to say that these self-defense units had been exterminated by the Reds.


Now, in Tsarist Russia the incitements were definitely coming from the people with the right ideology but implementation had been done by the people without any ideology whatsoever: the peasants, lumpen, professional criminals, and in some cases the pogroms started without any obvious incitement, just as a looting opportunity (as was described by Nicholas Wrangel in his memoirs).

The bottom line is: religion was not an obstacle. One may argue that the people involved were not truly religious but this is neither here nor there within framework of the subject under discussion because the Vozdh would have them as abase.
 
What I mean is that National Socialism as an ideology is atheist, the implication being that the idiology itself justified the mass murder of Jews. The clerical supporters of nazi germany definitely didn't support the holocaust, which was largely kept secret from the German public.
I'd look more into these two last points if I were you. There definitely were clericl supporters of the Holocaust, and the extent to which the German public "didn't know" about the Holocaust was far more limited than many people think. A great many Germans knew what was going on, and at the least, tacitly supported it.
 
Sorry for the delay folks, my Aunt passed away last Sunday and this week has been kinda rough for me and my family. We shall soon finally end the Prologue by showing how Russia is at the start of our tale, tomorrow I shall reveal who the Vozhd of all-Russias is, thanks for the tolerance.
 
I'd look more into these two last points if I were you. There definitely were clericl supporters of the Holocaust, and the extent to which the German public "didn't know" about the Holocaust was far more limited than many people think. A great many Germans knew what was going on, and at the least, tacitly supported it.
In OTL, the Nazis created the German Evangelical Church (Deutsche Evangelische Kirche) and German Christians (Deutsche Christen) which practiced Positive Christianity (Positives Christentum) as in an anti-Semitic version of the religion with the Old Testament and Jewish written parts of the Bible removed entirely. However, there was a good deal of Protestants and Catholics that opposed Nazism and they became known as the Confessing Church. Overall, the DEK, German Christians and Positive Christians failed to even convince a good portion of Protestants from supporting the Nazi Party and they alongside Catholics would oppose the organization. In fact, even the Catholic Church denounced Nazism albeit not by name in Mit Brennender Sorge (With Burning Concern) in 1938.
 
You are right in some respects, but the level of sadism required to exterminate a whole ethnic group is thankfully extremely high. Another thing to consider is that all mass murdering regimes of the 20C were officially atheist regimes(Nazi Germany, USSR, PRC, Cambodia etc.) I have a hard time imagining a superstitious russian muzhik(the Vozhd's presumed support base?) mannin camps where they funnel human beings to their death. What I'm saying is that Nazism, or Communism can in certain circumstances justify mass death, but Christianity never can, nor Islam etc etc. I dont know maybe Im wrong but thats my thoughts.
sa·dism /ˈsāˌdizəm/ :
noun the tendency to derive pleasure, especially sexual gratification, from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others.

I don't think sadism had anything to do with the Nazi desire to get rid of the Jews.
It was more about Nazi's identifying Jew's as the source of systemic problems in Weimar Germany(class-conflict, labour strikes, predatory international finance, "degenerate" art/plays/movies, sexual perversions,seperatism, and Bolshevism) combined with a darwinistic view of humanity and peoples, if they just kicked them out like happened many times before, the Jews would continue competing with the Germanic race elsewhere.
Combining those two premises they decided to deal with the perceived problem on a darwinistic scale, they dealt the same with Gypsies.

Wasn't the whole gas chamber business originated because even the Nazi indoctrinated soldiers couldn't muster the fortitude for continuous executions by bullets? Doesn't sound like the product of sadism to me.
 
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PROLOGUE: THE TREATY OF LUBLIN
THE TREATY OF LUBLIN

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The delegations of each side would take their seats in the hall, at least the heads of the delegations would, the majority of them would be forced to stand during the procedures. Couldn’t they have chosen a better hall to meet ? Why Lublin ? The city was ravaged by the war, apparently Polish soil had some kind of war magnet since the Middle Ages or even earlier than that, but for some reason it was desired by the Chief of Staff of the German Armed forces Max Hoffmann. Hoffmann himself would be leading the German delegation, it should’ve probably been a diplomat, someone knowledgeable about the arts of diplomacy and intrigue, yet there he was, and he was there not to guarantee peace, but to ensure a favorable defensive position once this truce was broken in the future. He predicted 20 years, once a new generation of soldiers was born and the lessons of this war learned, it would be when the Russian Hordes would attack Europe again. Yet he couldn’t push for very harsh terms, afterall, even if the French had fallen, Russian troops were still barely holding the line, and they could retreat across thousands of miles of territory at any time, only a sense of hopelessness convinced the Russians to negotiate.

The delegation of the Russian Provisional Government, headed by Mikhail Tereshchenko, was in a chaotic state just like it’s nation, and that was best exemplified by its leader. Tereshchenko was Ukrainian, and a secret supporter for greater autonomy to Ukraine, and why was he appointed ? Connections with Minister-President Alexander Kerensky, with both of them being amongst the main representatives of freemasonry in Russia. It was a controversial decision to say the least, but in an effort to appease the Progressive Party, he would be leading the delegation of Russia.

1917 seemed to be the year when the war would be finally over, with no hopes of American intervention, Britain in a monetary crisis, and France falling and forced to enter an armistice in 1916, Russia would be the sole focus of a renewed central powers offensive across a thousand-miles front. The people clamored for peace, with millions suffering of hunger and plague, especially of one coming from the West with the German troops, and the Tsar growing more and more unpopular, a revolution was inevitable. The scandals, incompetence, and authoritarianism of the Tsar pushed society to a breaking point, and on the Christmas of 1916, with thousands of protesters demanding the basic need of food in Petrograd, the Tsarist troops opened fire, and the Christmas massacre would erupt into a full-blown revolution. Even the soldiers switched sides executing their officers, the Duma would renew their criticism of the Tsar and the monarchy itself, although it did not push for peace, indeed many believed the war could still be won but not under Nicholas, the Soviets would return as well as Vladimir Lenin himself, coming inside an armored train and supplied by the Germans to take Russia out of the war. Nicholas, met with military officers and political leaders, would be forced to abdicate and passed the throne to his brother Grand Duke Michael, but he would refuse to take such poisoned chalice, and that would end 300 years of Romanov rule in the New Year of 1917.

Although the Provisional Government, led by Prince Lvov, insisted on continuing the war, many started to feel that, without a second front and very little hope of British help coming after the Gallipoli disaster, the morale was low, but the Minister of War Alexander Kerensky would push for a preemptive strike to blunt the Germans before their spring offensive started. After Pavel Milyukov, the predecessor to Tereshchenko as Foreign Minister, proposed the British to enter an agreement to not make a separate peace and pursue the war to the end, protests took the streets and Milyukov was forced to resign, and instead a coalition government would be formed with the Petrograd Soviet. The Provisional Government had the strength of the law, but it was the Soviet who held the de facto power, directing the actions of workers and committee of Soldiers. Kerensky would become the head of this new Provisional Government, launching his planned military offensive on the 4th of April 1917, the Kerensky Offensive was a complete disaster, with hundreds of thousands of casualties, badly coordinated offensives, lack of discipline, collapsing morale, and the counter-attack by German forces in May pushing into Ukraine and the Baltics would seal the fate of the war. There was no other choice but to pursue peace.


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(I’m sorry for committing the unforgivable crime of using Hearts of Iron 4 but I’m terrible at maps)
Each nation had its agenda, the Germans pushed for the creation of buffer states against Russian aggression and the crippling of the Russian industry. The Ottomans and Austro-Hungarians desired to put buffers that they could push to their sphere of influence, for the Austrians it was Ukraine as an Habsburg Kingdom, for the Ottomans was an unstable Federation in the Caucasus that would end up causing far more troubles than it was worth in hindsight. Even the Romanians were rewarded a part of Bessarabia for staying neutral, although Odessa would remain in Ukrainian hands. Poland, Finland, and the Baltics would be independent, the latter having a Temporary “Assembly” until a more permanent settlement was established, with the Poles under a regency council and Ukraine under Archduke Wilhelm, who styled himself as King Vasyl I, an admirer of Ukrainian culture since his young days. The matter of the Baltics and Finland almost made the Russian delegation walk out of the peace negotiations, but the German concessions in keeping a Russian, albeit demilitarized, Belarus and the Russian control of lands to the East of the Dniper were deemed acceptable.

Tereshchenko would have the disadvantage, with the Russian armies being pushed and the people clamoring for peace, time was against him and at each passing day his position weakened. The temporary ceasefire had left the Russian troops with some breathing room, yet desertions were happening by the thousands with whole regiments abandoning the lines sometimes. Kerensky demanded speed in the negotiations, as he desired to call for an election to create a Constitutional Assembly and provide his government with at least an ounce of legitimacy. By that point, there was no turning back.

In the end, on the 25th of June 1917, the Treaty of Lublin would be signed, with Russia losing a large portion of its industry and territory. It would also be forced to pay about 20 billion Gold Marks in reparations. The punitive terms of the treaty would later serve as one of the main rallying points of the Russian National Renewal Party and even before the rise of the Vozhd the Russian Republic would defy the treaty, even if peace came, it was almost unanimous that the Russians opposed the terms of such Treaty.
 
Very interesting. How it offends Russian nationalism without delivering a crippling blow to Russia's long term military-industrial capacity reminds me of the 1919 Treaty of Versailles.
 
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