Blue Skies in Camelot: An Alternate 60's and Beyond

The major "loser" here is going to be Kennedy, history will NOT be kind. (And as he's no longer going to be the patron saint of space-nerdism due to his "killing" the American Space program over this whole 'coopertive' bunk his place in history will be even muddier :) )

In general two things will happen when the 'cooperative' program goes through: NASA is going to find itself suddenly very marginally funded really There quickly and the US Air Force will finally have a valid 'excuse' to fully separate its space program from that of NASA. (Much to both Kennedy's and McNamara's discomfort) The Titan II SLV, being basically a 'man-rated' Titan II ICBM will not be available for NASA use, (nor any of it's variants) and overall "military" support for NASA and its missions will drop significantly. NASA has just become a 'security' risk. This will also mean that DoD (aka NSA launches) will rapidly move from the Cape to Vandenberg and any and all launchers used for such, (Atlas-Centaur, and Thor-Delta for example) will no longer be available for NASA use or launched from the Cape.

Arguably this will give Von Braun's Jupiter more play time as well as variants of the Saturn-1 family but at the same time the Air Force will be justified (through the DoD/NSA) in demanding development of various Titan and Delta, (Thor-Delta) launch vehicles. Unfortunately, (I see Archibald and the rest of the "Big Gemini/MOL" crowd salivating in the wings there don't think I don't! :) ) while Blue Gemini may get some additional traction, (as an 'alternative' to the slow progress of the official 'Apollo' program) MOL is still unlikely as NASA will have justification to push for MORL based on the Saturn-1 LV and Apollo CM/SM. Speaking of you realize that the "Apollo-1" disaster is still likely? And the fallout will be worse given more 'methodical' push the Soviets will be inclined to pursue given a cooperative program. The lack of time pressure may be enough to allow the bugs to be ironed out before they become hazards though so it may be a wash.

Oddly enough, and frankly there's no real way to 'work-it-in' but an interesting point at this time, (about 1964 I think) McNamara was made aware that the Air Force REALLY wanted to invest in and develop the Orion propelled "Deep Space Deterrent Force" with memo's indicating they wanted it badly enough to devote a significant portion of their operational budget to the development. Though interesting there is no way the Soviets are going to green light the US putting such a system into development let alone operation and the needed infrastructure to build and deploy what amounts to hundreds of thousands "tactical" nuclear bombs per year isn't acceptable to Kennedy either. NERVA will also be taken away from NASA at this point as the AEC has to many ties to both the weapons design and develoipment branches of nuclear engineering to be acceptable.

Further Von Braun and companies more 'natural' conservatism is going to come to the fore as they insist on more and more rigorous testing of each phase of the program which was bypassed in the name of time in OTL. For example the 'testing' phase of the Saturn-V will be greatly extended as each stage is tested rather than the "all-up" test of OTL. Much like the Saturn 1 flight tests where the first stage with two dummy upper stages was flow a couple of times, then a marginally operational second stage and so on.

As for public reaction as you've noted it's not that much of an issue with them as we were by the mid-60s seeming to have 'caught up' at least with the Soviets in space. Further though Kennedy HAD been desperate to find any alternative to choosing to go to the Moon. Only doing so when it was clear that no other 'goal' could have the effect he wanted. By 1965 the majority of the build-up spending for NASA had been done and the budget was due to drop anyway. (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA, see specifically the 1964/65/66 time period) Once the 'goal' loses his support in favor of the cooperative effort it will rapidly drop off the public radar for "other" priorites more applicable to their needs.

As usual if you need more info :)

Randy
 
President_Lincoln wrote:


I actually like the difference, since as has been noted there are few takes on this outcome. My only 'issue' is it is VERY difficult to achieve so I don't want to see this simply thrown out as 'because I said so' despite that being of course a perfectly valid option :)



Of course :)



Well my main issue is the American's are going to be significantly disappointed first of all because this does indeed look like they are admitting 'defeat' and especially since they are by all accounts finally 'getting ahead' themselves with a large launch vehicle, (Saturn-1/1B and Saturn V) and a realistic and publicly accepted program that there is no known Soviet counter too. As I noted though the 'bill' is shockingly large and despite not having to compete with Vietnam, (good out on that one btw) it has focused and brought out the 'best' aspects of American ingenuity and technology just like Kennedy had originally espoused. And it's all 'paid' for already with budgets from 1966 onwards actually going down from the high points so the 'rationale' is going to be lacking despite Kennedy's charisma.

Having said that I can still see Kennedy "selling" this but it WILL cost the US as NASA's main purpose it has spent the last four years building itself up to goes away and NASA will have to 're-invent' itself yet again. This is not necessarily a "bad" thing mind you. OTL NASA never actually did this despite the post-Apollo cutbacks and draw-downs and unlike OTL they won't have the prior success of the Apollo program to stand on to avoid doing this. In the Soviet case hiding and obstructing their real capabilities and at least looking like they are 'all in' is going to be somewhat easier but the real chaos is how fast and totally the US military space efforts will be divorced from the "civilian" efforts due to the Russian presence.

OTL this wasn't ever really done despite efforts by Eisenhower and Kennedy to do so simply because the technology of space flight is such a 'dual use' thing. TTL the military has no choice but to divorce itself from the US Civilian space effort and Kennedy has in fact enabled this effort and therefore must pay the price.



Hopefully I can post this before you go too far with this as I've had time to think about how Khrushchev can actually work this to his advantage and found he actually CAN get out of this on a better path.

Simply put he's got an opportunity to significantly delay the American space program by dragging his feet and 'separating' the Soviet space program into the basically two programs is already is fissioning into. Korolev and the Soviet 'civil' program are currently pretty much 'dead-in-the-water' due to the ascendance of Yangel/Chelomei/Glushko's more military oriented efforts. Khrushchev basically loses nothing by putting Korolev's concepts forward as the 'official' Soviet space program while hiding the majority of the military effort in the background 'noise' of the general program. Korolev can be counted on to draw out huge and grandiose plans that will make the Americans think the Soviets are still ahead while "economic reforms" and "democratic reforms" are taking place in the USSR itself that (obviously) are causing delays and funding issues with pushing forward with the cooperative Lunar mission. Meanwhile programs such as Lunokhod rovers and sample return missions and building block LEO missions can take place as the two sides feel each other capabilities out over (the longer the better) a period of time.



Hey you're doing great! You HAVE a timeline while all I have is copious amounts of notes and junk so feel free to ignore me if I get out of line. It is after all YOUR time line. If I have issues I can always get off my lazy duff and write my own :)

I do have some more info to dump but I'll put it up in a bit. The main issue with being able to initially read-but-not-reply being I have to hope to get this up in time to be seen and read :)

Randy

Thank you so much for all the feedback, advice, and ideas! :D This has been tremendously helpful. :)

I will definitely take you up on the offer of more information as we move along with Space Race updates.
 

Md139115

Banned
You know, it just occurred to me that they could just flip a coin for who gets to be first on the moon. The moon has enough gravity if done gently enough. I think a Swiss Franc would be appropriate enough.
 
You know, it just occurred to me that they could just flip a coin for who gets to be first on the moon. The moon has enough gravity if done gently enough. I think a Swiss Franc would be appropriate enough.

Minor spoiler: if everything works out with the mission, that was how I was thinking of having them decide.
 
Pop Culture 1965

1965 in Pop Culture: The Year that Elvis and The Beatles Rocked the World


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Billboard’s Year-End Hot 100 Singles of 1965 (Top 10)

  1. “(I Can’t Get No) Satisfaction” - The Rolling Stones

  2. “Wooly Bully” - Sam the Sham and the Pharaohs

  3. “You’ve Lost That Lovin’ Feelin” - The Righteous Brothers

  4. “I Can’t Help Myself (Sugar Pie Honey Bunch)” - The Four Tops

  5. “Help!” - The Beatles

  6. “Unchained Melody” - Elvis Presley

  7. “My Girl” - The Temptations

  8. “Downtown” - Petula Clark

  9. “Help Me, Rhonda” - The Beach Boys

  10. “I Got You Babe” - Sonny and Cher

News in Music, through the year


January 4th - The Fender Musical Instruments Corporation is sold to CBS for $13 Million.


January 12th – Hullabaloo premieres on NBC. The first show included performances by The New Christy Minstrels, comedian Woody Allen, actress Joey Heatherton and a segment from London in which Brian Epstein introduces The Zombies and Gerry & the Pacemakers.


January 21st - Following up on their first meeting at a cafe in London, The Beatles fly to the United States to visit Elvis and Ann Margret at Graceland. That night, the musicians joke around and record demo tapes of dozens of Rock N Roll and Blues songs from each others’ catalogs and other tunes of years past. A single one of these tapes, a Beatles cover of “That’s All Aright” is eventually remastered and released as a single, with a cover of “I Want to Hold Your Hand” sung as a duet by Ann-Margret and Presley on the B side. The proceeds of the record all go to charity and its release heralds the launch of an international tour, co-headlined by the artists, one which will carry them across America, Canada, Western Europe and conclude in London in October. In an interview with Time Magazine, Presley and Paul McCartney jointly declared that “Rock N Roll is here to stay!”


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The same day, across the world in Melbourne, Australia, Roy Orbison and the Rolling Stones begin a tour of their own.


March 6th - The Temptations’ “My Girl”, written by Smokey Robinson and Ronald White, from Motown Records, hits number 1 in the United States.


March 18th - While on tour in Australia, the Rolling Stones are charged five pound fines each for urinating on the wall of a petrol station. Pictures of frontman Mick Jagger giving “the bird” to local police spread around the world and cement the band’s popularity and status as the bad boys of Rock music.


March 21st - The Supremes score their fourth consecutive number one hit with “Stop! In the Name of Love”.


April 21st - The Beach Boys appear on Shindig! Performing their most recent hit, “Do You Wanna Dance?”.


May 5th - British blues-rock band The Animals are instantly killed when their tour bus careens off the side of a crowded highway near Los Angeles, California. Known primarily at the time for their hit “House of the Rising Sun”, they will eventually attain a cult following.


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May 8th - The British Commonwealth makes music history as it achieves a clean sweep of the U.S. Hot 100’s Top 10 slots with the year’s biggest hit, “Satisfaction” by the Rolling Stones occupying the number one slot. A week later, the sweep is ended as Elvis Presley’s “Unchained Melody” shoots up to the number one spot.


May 9th - Bob Dylan performs two concerts at the Royal Albert Hall in London during a tour of Western Europe. Audience members include Donovan and the Royal Family.


June 16th - Without Paul Simon’s permission or knowledge, Producer Tom Wilson adds a heavy backing band to Simon and Garfunkel’s new song “The Sound of Silence”. The song is eventually released as a single and hits number one on New Year’s Day, 1966.


June, throughout - The term “folk rock” becomes popularized by the music press.


July 25th - Bob Dylan is booed for playing an electric set at the Newport Folk Festival. Other acts include Joan Baez and Donovan.


August 6th - While finishing up a suite of concerts in Paris, the Beatles release their fifth studio album, Yesterday. Though the band had originally intended to call it Help! after the song and planned film of the same name, due to the tour with Elvis, the film is scrapped in development.


Track Listing:

  1. “I’ve Just Seen a Face”

  2. “The Night Before”

  3. “You’ve Got to Hide Your Love Away”

  4. “I Need You”

  5. “Another Girl”

  6. “You’re Going to Lose That Girl”

  7. “Ticket to Ride”

  8. “Help!”

  9. “It’s Only Love”

  10. “You Like Me Too Much”

  11. “Tell Me What You See”

  12. “Act Naturally”

  13. “Yesterday”

  14. “Dizzy Miss Lizzy”

August 15th - The Beatles and Elvis play Shea Stadium, the first rock concert to be held in a venue of that size. The concert sets a record for attendance (55,600+) and for revenue. Plans are made to use recordings taken of the event to create a live album and film to be released before Christmas. Headlines were made on every music magazine as the Fab Four and the King bring the stadium to its feet to end the show with a dramatic rendition of “Dizzy Miss Lizzy”. John Lennon called the moment, “the greatest, perhaps, in my entire life.”


October 15th - Guitarist Jimi Hendrix signs a three year recording contract with Ed Chaplin as a session musician in San Francisco. He quickly grows bored of the work and looks to start his own band.


October 26th - As their tour with the King comes to an end, The Beatles return to their native Britain and are appointed Members of the British Empire (MBE) by Queen Elizabeth II.


December 3rd - Presley announces plans to take a long trip to California while Ann works on a new film. During this, Margret is offered the role of Catwoman in the pilot of a television treatment for Batman starring Adam West and Burt Ward. While she ultimately rejected the role due to scheduling conflicts, she did express interest having a role in the series, hinting to the producers that she might accept a future offer of a role in the series later on. Meanwhile in the Golden State, Presley sets up shop in San Francisco to record material for a new album. It is while recording songs for this album, including a Ritchie Cordell number called “I Think We’re Alone Now”, that the King became acquainted with one Jimi Hendrix, whom producer Chet Atkins happened to hire one day to lay down some backing tracks on rhythm guitar…


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1965 in Film - The Year’s Biggest

The Sound of Music - Musical. Directed by Robert Wise, starring Julie Andrews and Christopher Plummer. Easily the highest grossing film of the year, and a major hit for 20th Century Fox, several of the film’s songs such as “Edelweiss”, “Do-Re-Mi”, “My Favorite Things”, and the titualar “Sound of Music” have become beloved by millions around the world. The film makes history by replacing Gone With the Wind, as, for its time, the highest grossing film ever made.


Doctor Zhivago - Drama/Epic Historical. Directed by David Lean. Coming off the great success of 1962’s Lawrence of Arabia, Lean scores big again with this story of pre-World War 1 Russia. Starring Geraldine Chaplin, Julie Christie, Alec Guinness, and Omar Sharif.


Thunderball - Action/Espionage Thriller/007 Franchise. Directed by Terence Young and once again starring Sean Connery as James Bond. Successful, though not to as great of an extent as Goldfinger had been the year before, Thunderball is nonetheless another solid entry in the series.


For a Few Dollars More - Spaghetti Western. Directed by Sergio Leone and starring Clint Eastwood. The second in what comes to be known as the “Dollars Trilogy”, the film catapults Eastwood to international stardom and earns 250 times its budget in return at the box office.


Everyone’s Favorite Television Programs in 1965


The Andy Griffith Show

Bonanza

Gunsmoke

The Beverly Hillbillies

Hogan’s Heroes



1965 in Sport


AFL Championship Game: Jack Kemp and the Buffalo Bills once again topple the San Diego Chargers, this time shutting them out 23 - 0.


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AFL MVP: Quarterback Jack Kemp of the Buffalo Bills.


NFL Championship Game: The Green Bay Packers defeat the Cleveland Browns 23 - 12.


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NFL MVP: Fullback Jim Brown of the Cleveland Browns


The World Series: Thanks to the efforts of newly hired batting coach “Joltin’ Joe” DiMaggio, the Los Angeles Dodgers win the World Series 4 games to 3 over the Minnesota Twins. Pitcher Sandy Koufax is once again named World Series MVP.


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NBA Finals: For the third year in a row, the Boston Celtics continue their dominance with another championship. This time, they beat out the Los Angeles Lakers 4 games to 1.


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Stanley Cup: The Montreal Canadiens go 4 games to 3 over the Chicago Blackhawks to win the Cup.


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Time Magazine’s Person of the Year: Alexei Kosygin, Premier of the Soviet Union

For pursuing comprehensive reforms to the Soviet economy, and an overhaul of relations between East and West.


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Nobel Laureates - 1965

Physics - Sin-Itiro Tomonaga, Julian Schwinger, Richard Feynman

Chemistry - Robert Burns Woodward

Physiology or Medicine - Francois Jacob, Andre Michel Lwoff, Jacques Monod

Literature - Mikhail Sholokhov

Peace - UNICEF (United Nations International Children’s Emergency Fund)


Other Pop Culture Headlines from the Year


February 17th, 1965 - Part of NASA’s operations to fulfill President Kennedy’s goal of landing a man on the Moon, with or without Soviet help before the decade is out, Ranger 8 is launched from Cape Canaveral. It’s mission: to photograph potential landing sites on the surface of the Moon. The probe is successful and completes its assignment before crashing into the Lunar surface.


May 5th, 1965 - Lead Guitarist Jerry Garcia and his band, The Grateful Dead, play their first show in Menlo Park, California, outside of San Francisco. At the time, they were performing under the name “The Warlocks”.


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August 1st, 1965 - The classic science fiction novel Dune is published by Frank Herbert.


October 4th, 1965 - Pope Paul VI becomes the first papal head to visit the United States. He gives mass at New York’s St. Patrick’s Cathedral and meets briefly with President Kennedy, the nation’s first catholic leader.


October 28th, 1965 - The Gateway Arch is completed and unveiled in St. Louis, Missouri.


Throughout - The Miniskirt is a huge trend in “swinging London” and will become the fashion statement of the Sixties.


Next Time on Blue Skies on Camelot: The First Half of 1966 in the Kennedy White House
 
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Quick update about the TL's behind the scenes stuff:

As much as I like the three updates/week pace I've been working at for a while, I believe that I may have to slow it to two/week to maintain the length and quality of each of the updates. I'm about to head back to school for a new semester, as well as potentially beginning a new collaborative project here on the site. To make sure that I keep these updates up to a standard I'm satisfied with, I'm going to, at least for now, limit myself to Blue Skies updates on Monday and Friday. Let me know if you have any questions.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to say wow and thank you much to all of you! The number of reads and responses this TL has attracted is humbling and I'm so thankful for all you readers! Your feedback, likes, and replies are much appreciated and I couldn't write this thing without you all. :)

Cheers!
 
A shame about the Animals, though, but you win some and lose some...

Hope Elvis collaborates with the Beach Boys, among others...
 
Awesome update, dude.

Thank you, kindly!

A shame about the Animals, though, but you win some and lose some...

Hope Elvis collaborates with the Beach Boys, among others...

I hope so too. :) I've got a few more collabs for the King I've been cooking up. ;) Eventually, he'll focus more on his own solo stuff as well, I think. The artist tied for my favorite musician IRL is Johnny Cash, so I'm hoping to do some stuff with the Man in Black in future updates as well. The Animals will be missed.
 
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