Bookmark1995
Banned
Not only that, but Wendell Wilkie was incredibly progressive. So progressive, he makes Joe Biden look like a stodgy conservative.
Man, Republicans were once people who spoke facts and not created imaginary fears.
Blue Skies in Camelot: An Alternate 60's and Beyond
- Thread starter President_Lincoln
- Start date
Not only that, but Wendell Wilkie was incredibly progressive. So progressive, he makes Joe Biden look like a stodgy conservative.
Man, Republicans were once people who spoke facts and not created imaginary fears.
Bookmark1995
Banned
Uh...long story short, the GOP welcomed reaction into their party, and those lunatics eventually took over the asylum.
But in a broader sense, most Americans forgot about the times when Americans had no economic regulation protecting them, hence why people repealed all this legislation that protected them. This is why older Republicans are less reactionary: because they remember well things like the Great Depression.
Yeah the party of Lincoln, Grant, Roosevelt and Eisenhower became the party of Golderwater, Reagan and Bush.
Bookmark1995
Banned
But what's happening in the last 30 years or so (circa 1990) is the growing trend of political extremism.
And Internet and social media are making things worse, along with America's growing racial diversity.
Change is happening faster than most of us would like.
Moderate liberals like George Romney and Nelson Rockefeller were replaced with southern conservatives and Reagan
I have a an idea make Lyndon after the scandal fades, an ambassador, i have A fantasy of him in Iran, helping guide the shahs white revolutio!
Could they stop the coup of the week? Cao Ky could come in earlier and bring order to the nation.
Chapter 10: You Really Got Me - August 1964 in the White House
The news of Governor Nelson Rockefeller’s nomination by the Republicans was met with disappointment by the President and his team of advisors in the West Wing. Not only was Senator Goldwater a personal friend of Kennedy’s, he was the perfect ideological straw man to rail against. A race against Goldwater would have been easier, that much was clear. Not only was Rockefeller nearly as liberal as the President on most issues, he had supported the passage of the Civil Rights Act, considered by many to be Kennedy’s crowning achievement since taking office. Rather than a simple matter of rallying the New Deal Coalition against a hard right winger at the fringe of political respectability, the election would likely devolve into a contest of personalities.
Nonetheless, President Kennedy was ready for a fight. The first step to winning this battle, however, was to find someone to fight it alongside him. JFK still needed a running mate. Bobby had been working tirelessly with Ted and other Washington insiders to assemble a list of acceptable options. To the President of course, the answer was initially obvious: Florida Senator George Smathers. The handsome, smooth talking Smathers was another close friend of Kennedy’s, and had served as an usher at the President’s wedding. Before the assassination attempt in Dallas, as word was beginning to leak about the potential investigation into then Vice President Johnson, Kennedy had privately offered Smathers the number two spot should the Democrats drop Johnson from the ticket in ‘64. The only issue was that by now, July 1964, the political landscape had changed.
Though Smathers was loyal to the administration’s economic initiatives, he was adamantly anti-civil rights. One of the 18 Democrats in the so called “Southern Bloc” which had filibustered and fought with all their might to stop the Civil Rights Act, “Gorgeous George” as his opponents called him, was not as progressive on racial issues as the administration wanted him to be. If he were selected to be the President’s running mate, Bobby warned his brother, then Rockefeller and the Republicans would paint he and the Democratic party as opportunistic and hypocritical, willing to do whatever it took to appeal to blacks and white southerners alike.
The President understood the risks associated with inviting a professed segregationist onto the ticket, but he also saw the potential political gains. Johnson, for all the friction between the two men, had secured the “Solid South” for Kennedy in 1960, and Smathers, being from Florida, may have been able to do it again. The question was whether or not Kennedy wanted to bother trying to win the South this time around. Johnson had told the President “this will lose us the South forever” when JFK signed the Civil Rights Act the month prior. Kennedy had not let that fact deter him from signing what he saw as legislation critical to the development of the nation. Though Smathers awaited the call from the President to be added to the ticket, Kennedy would not send it. There was moral high ground to be won here, and the President insisted on holding it.
Other options put forward by Bobby and Ted included Senator Hubert Humphrey of Minnesota, Senator Henry M. Jackson of Washington, Governor Pat Brown of California, and Governor Terry Sanford of North Carolina. A perennial favorite of liberals throughout the nation, Humphrey had been absolutely instrumental in passing the Civil Rights Act in the Senate, even writing and championing the compromise bill which managed to finally get it through. Despite his progressive stance on civil rights being seen as a major strength, Humphrey’s liberal status worried the President. Though Kennedy wielded the respect of the liberal wing of American politics, he was strongly disliked by conservatives. This was especially true after passage of Civil Rights and the declaration of a war on poverty. He could not afford, he decided, to alienate the moderates and the middle of the spectrum by selecting someone as liberal as Humphrey for his number two. Of course, it didn’t help Humphrey’s chances that he was from a safely Democratic state and that he and the President had bitterly fought over the Democratic nomination in 1960. The White House did not want to let that grudge die so easily.
Henry “Scoop” Jackson of Washington State was a horse of a different color. 52 years old, a war hawk, ardently anti Communist, and firmly supportive of Civil Rights, Jackson had been a strong contender to be Kennedy’s running mate in 1960 before being edged out by Lyndon Johnson. Recently appointed as the Chairman of the Senate Committee on Energy and Natural Resources, Jackson brought strong environmentalist credentials to the ticket, and had been a driving force in spearheading much of the New Frontier legislation in Congress. Being from the West Coast, Jackson could potentially help the President break out in some of the Republican strongholds there, such as California and Oregon. States Kennedy would need to contend in to counter losses in the South, angry from the Civil Rights Act’s passage. He was also a Senator who was no stranger to legislative battles. If reelected, Kennedy knew he was in for a series of uphill fights such as the one he’d just finished on Civil Rights. With LBJ no longer around to help him twist arms, perhaps Jackson could fill the gap.
Pat Brown as a possible running mate intrigued Kennedy greatly. A popular Democratic governor presiding over a traditionally Republican state, Brown potentially brought a lot to the ticket. During his tenure in Sacramento, California had modernized significantly. New infrastructure projects, reforms to the state’s system of higher education, a higher minimum wage, and anti discrimination laws were all created under Brown’s watch. This record, in of itself, was rather impressive. With its population already massive and steadily growing, California would soon overtake New York as the nation’s most populous state and come 1970, become the most valuable in the electoral college. If the President could count it in his column come election night, he might not have to break as much of a sweat over losing the South. What was more, Brown had even supported then Senator Kennedy’s bid for the Democratic nomination in 1960. On the other hand, Brown was not the most exciting pick, in terms of his personal charisma. He also did not offer much in the way of expressing unity within the party. Selecting Brown would essentially tell the South that they were no longer important, in any way, to the President. Kennedy decided that he would keep an eye on Brown.
Finally, there was Governor James Terry Sanford of North Carolina. Born the same year as the President, 1917, Sanford had led quite the remarkable life before his ascent into politics. An Eagle Scout in his youth, Sanford graduated from the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill in 1939 and became an FBI agent. During World War II, Sanford saw combat in the European Theater in the Army, as part of the 517th Parachute Infantry Regiment. For his bravery and wounds sustained at the Battle of the Bulge, Sanford was awarded the Bronze Star and the Purple Heart before being honorably discharged in 1946. A liberal Democrat and supporter of Kennedy’s domestic agenda, Sanford also stood out to the President because of one quality in particular: he was a southerner who was also a progressive leader on Civil Rights. Believing in equality, Sanford fought to dispel the untrue belief held throughout the country that all southerners were opposed to Civil Rights. He represented, to Kennedy, the best possible replacement for Johnson and a remarkable gesture of what the future of the Democratic party, and indeed, the United States, could look like. A war hero, a supporter of civil rights, and a southerner. The President was sold. He ordered Bobby into the Oval Office and told him to get Sanford on the phone right away. “Tell him to fly up to Washington, I want to put him on the ticket.”
The media announced shortly thereafter that Sanford accepted the President’s offer, and that the Democratic party largely supported the pick. Despite positive press response and polling data, as well as Sanford’s status as a Southern Governor, not all was well for the White House as the summer turned sweltering and July gave way to August. LBJ’s prediction about the South would prove prophetic, and before the Democratic convention could even take place, there were dissenters threatening to tear the party asunder.
Long a major subset of the New Deal Coalition, many socially conservative, economically liberal white southerners felt betrayed by the party of Roosevelt and Truman when they saw the announcement of the presumptive ticket for ‘64. Though not quite as progressive as Humphrey or some others in the country, Kennedy/Sanford seemed to these Jim Crow voters a stab in the back. Worse still, the Republican ticket wasn’t any better in their eyes.
Rockefeller and Smith were both northeasterners, and had both supported the “damn ni**er bill” (as Senator Strom Thurmond referred to it) Kennedy signed earlier that summer. Smith was also a woman, something many conservatives saw as “unseemly” on a Presidential ticket for the time. Feeling dejected, ignored and without a candidate palatable to their beliefs, plenty of southerners were pleased to hear that there would be another option: Alabama Governor George Corey Wallace.
A poster child for segregation across the nation, Wallace previously made headlines when he stood in front of the door to the University of Alabama, blocking African American students from attending classes on the newly integrated campus. Though eventually forced to back down, Wallace further made a name for himself in November of 1963, when he announced he would be challenging President Kennedy in the Democratic primaries for President the following year. The attempt on Kennedy’s life in Dallas had been a major setback to Wallace’s campaign, as public sympathy turned the nation solidly behind the wounded President. After handily losing most of the primary contests to Kennedy or favorite son surrogates in support of the President, Wallace seemed defeated. Following Sanford’s addition to the ticket however, Wallace made a second announcement which shook the nation to its core: he would run for President as a third party candidate in 1964, with Senator Robert Byrd (D - WV) as his running mate.
“I cannot help but run, my fellow Americans.” the Alabama Governor said in his incendiary statement. “For the current state of affairs is simply unbearable for hardworking, decent people in this country. Furthermore, I draw the line in the dust and toss the gauntlet before the feet of tyranny, and I say segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever!”
Aside from Wallace’s independent run, which was seeing a large number of conservative backers from both parties, the President also faced issues once again in foreign affairs. On August 2nd, 1964, the Destroyer U.S.S. Maddox was performing a signals intelligence patrol as part of DESOTO operations in the Gulf of Tonkin. While performing the patrol, the Maddox was pursued by three North Vietnamese Navy torpedo boats of the 135th Torpedo Squadron. Maddox fired three warning shots and the North Vietnamese boats responded with the launching of several torpedoes and machine gun fire. Maddox expended over 280 3-inch and 5-inch shells in a subsequent sea battle. One U.S. aircraft was damaged, the three North Vietnamese torpedo boats were damaged, and four North Vietnamese sailors were killed, with six more wounded. There were no U.S. casualties. Maddox "was unscathed except for a single bullet hole from a Vietnamese machine gun round", according to a subsequent Navy report.
It was claimed by the National Security Agency that a second “Gulf of Tonkin incident” occured two days later, on August 4th, but this was later proven to be false. The evidence collected on this second incident found that false radar images created the illusion that more torpedo boats were approaching. Nonetheless, the first incident, on the 2nd, shook the nation ferociously and forced the escalating situation in Vietnam to the forefront of the national consciousness.
Throughout the previous years of his administration, President Kennedy had accelerated American involvement in South Vietnam, increasing the number of military advisers there to nearly 16,000 by 1964. He had also supported the coup which resulted in the overthrow of President Diem in November, 1963, believing that Diem’s corruption, instability and oppression of buddhists were undermining the legitimacy of the South against its aggressive communist neighbor to the north. By the time of the attack on the Maddox however, the President was wrestling with the future of American involvement in the country. In an interview on the issue, Kennedy said: “In the final analysis, it is their war. They are the ones who have to win it or lose it. We can help them, we can give them equipment, we can send our men out there as advisers, but they have to win it, the people of Vietnam, against the Communists.”
Stuck between committing to protracted military involvement in the region, as most of his military advisers wanted, or full withdrawal, which would likely mean the fall of the south to communism, Kennedy needed a solution. He summoned a council of confidants to reach a decision. Invitees included Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, Attorney General Robert Kennedy, and Ambassador to South Vietnam Henry Cabot Lodge, Jr. With these three men seated around him in the Oval Office, the President ran through his options.
“Gentlemen, we have quite the situation laid before us, as I’m sure you’re well aware.” The President rubbed his temples and shook his head. “Our boys have been fired upon by communists in south Asia. The public, and most of the uniforms are calling for escalation and war with the north, if need be. I don’t want us sending more boys down there to get shot at unless it’s the only way forward. I just want to be cautious, damn it. Meanwhile, I’ve got Rockefeller and the Republicans breathing down my neck and saying I’m weak on communism. Opportunistic fuckers, politicizing an attack like this.” He turned to Lodge, the sole Republican in the room. “No offense, Henry.”
“None taken.” Lodge cleared his throat.
“So.” Kennedy sighed. “What do you suggest I do?”
McNamara adjusted his glasses and answered first. “Mr. President, your first step is to go before Congress. Ask for a resolution giving you permission to launch retaliatory air attacks on the North. That ought to quiet the talk of ‘weak on communism’ without changing our commitment levels in the region overmuch.” Breaking only to sip from a glass of water, the Secretary of Defense continued. “But that won’t be a permanent solution. Eventually, we’ll have to decide if we can live with Vietnam falling to the reds.”
“Out of the question.” Bobby Kennedy answered before his brother could. “Are you kidding, Bob? Be serious. You saw what happened to Truman when Mao won in China, the Republicans hung that around our necks and haven’t let it go since. Besides, it’s like dominoes, you know. One falls to communism, pretty soon they all will.” The Attorney General paused to soften his tone a little. “Is there any way we can ensure the south will stand without the need for a large amount of troops? The Republic of Vietnam does have an army of its own, after all.”
For the first time in the meeting, Lodge spoke of his own accord. “Mr. President, I believe I know of a way to help the south without having to send in troops.”
Kennedy eyed him with interest. “Go on.”
“Based on my experience there, sir, the biggest issue facing the south is a lack of stability. The central government is plagued by infighting, and ever since Diem got the boot, there’s been a ceaseless struggle to figure out who’s in charge. Thanks to this, the north has been able to expand its supply network, move guerrillas and agents into the south, and gain the support of much of the local population. We need to invest resources into stabilizing the south, reorganizing its government and military to better defend itself from its communist aggressors.”
“So what do we do to make that happen?” Kennedy asked, rising from his chair to lean against the Resolute Desk.
“Simple.” Lodge answered. “Make them a protectorate.”
The President laughed. “Henry, for the second time tonight I don’t mean to offend, but if that’s the best you’ve got, get out of my Office.”
Lodge’s face creased into a frown. “Sir?”
“Henry, why do you think the Vietnamese fought the French?” Kennedy shook his head. “They threw off the yolk of colonial possession, and they’re not likely to welcome it back again just to oppose an ideology we tell them they’re not supposed to like. The first half of your idea was legitimate, however, and I plan to make it my primary response.”
Standing tall and proud, Kennedy turned his back to the other three men, so he could look out the window for a moment while he rendered his verdict. “I will make a speech before Congress, asking for a resolution to bomb North Vietnam in retaliation for the attack on the Maddox. Then, I’ll tell the CIA to increase operations in the South, figure out who we can rely on to make a solid leader. Once we find out who we can trust, we’ll do what we must to get them in the Presidential Palace, and provide support to stabilize his government. After that, we’re getting out.”
A collective gasp filled the room. “Mr. President?” Lodge finally managed, aghast.
Kennedy turned around, confident, his voice stern. “We’ll keep sending money, supplies, but in terms of advisers and manpower, we’re pulling out, gentlemen. We get in over our heads in this, and we’ll regret it for the rest of our lives. Our nation will regret it even longer than that. Eisenhower left this thing in my lap, and look how that turned out in Cuba. Bob,” He looked at McNamara. “You’ll recall we talked before about a timetable to pull out. When’s the soonest you think we can make it?”
“Safely?” McNamara raised an eyebrow. “1967, I’d say. We’ll have to make sure the south is equipped to fight the north once we’re gone.”
“We’ll do our best. I’m not getting us into some sort of quagmire to save face.” Kennedy replied. “The lives of our boys are worth more to me than playing politics.” The meeting over, the President dismissed his advisers.
“Thank you, Mr. President.” They answered, leaving the Oval Office one by one.
The President’s speech before Congress was well received by both the public and the press, who remarked that the address was “forceful, yet restrained, and statesmanlike.” The legislature responded by passing the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, giving President Kennedy the authority to order retaliatory air strikes on Hanoi and the rest of North Vietnam. At the same time, Kennedy’s plans for finding a stable leader for the South and bringing American troops and military advisers home were put into action. As promised, a full withdrawal of Americans from South Vietnam would be finished by 1967, but only after the President felt assured that the South could stand on its own against a northern invasion. Communism would not spread on his watch, but neither would a war begin.
As Martin B-57’s rained hellfire on the reds in Southeast Asia, Kennedy and Sanford geared up for the election against Rockefeller/Smith and Wallace/Byrd at the Democratic National Convention in Atlantic City, New Jersey. There, both candidates, along with First Lady Jacqueline Kennedy, and other guests spoke vigorously in favor of the upcoming War on Poverty, and of Kennedy’s strong, but peaceful slate of foreign policy. “Let us not abandon the journey of a thousand miles we began with a single step,” the President said before a roaring crowd. “But let us continue to march toward the great potential of our country, the greatest and freest in the history of the world.”
Next Time: President Kennedy makes an important state visit abroad, the election of 1964.
I just don't want him to disappear entirely. His talents are useful provided Vietnam doesn't screw him up.
Since he won't be at 1600, he can do something else. I think Muhammad Resa would like him.
Since he won't be at 1600, he can do something else. I think Muhammad Resa would like him.
Deleted member 146578
Hope once everything is normal, he will return with more amazing chapters.
Same here. If he has some other project on here, would like to see it as soon as he's able to tell us about it.
I did some thinking about Star Wars and I have a few ideas.
Jabba Rescue: This still needs streamlining but I noticed the earlier concept art involved an arena. So I'm thinking that Luke and the others approach Jabba with money to release Han and call off the vendetta. Jabba however (whether for his own reasons or because the Empire asked him to) double crosses them after Han is freed, capturing Luke, Han and Lando and throwing them into an arena while keeping Leia as a slave girl. As it turns out, Luke saw this coming and secretly hid his lightsaber in R2D2 like in the actual movie (and also secretly took steps to ensure R2 couldn't have a restraining bolt put on him). This condenses the Rancor arena scene into the Sarlaac pit battle.
1.) Luke manages to get his lightsaber to him immediately in the fight and starts making mincemeat of Jabba's goons.
2.) Jabba unleashes the Rancor on the heroes......but Luke shows his versatility with the force by using it to calm the beast, which makes Jabba even MORE apoplectic to the point that he sets Boba Fett (Who's been standing to Jabba's side) into action.
3.) Luke and Boba get a pretty cool fight scene which ends with Luke defeating Boba (not sure if he lives or not; Luke could kill him or at the very least give him a massive beating.)
4.) Leia strangles the crap out of Jabba; Jabba's majordomo Bib Fortuna is there.....and simply stands aside to allow Leia to do the deed (there are scenes where Jabba's being rude and abusive to him, making this a DogBitesBack moment.) This gets the fighting to stop, and Bib lets them go.
Point of View: This is rightfully considered a copout and bad writing, so I think that it can be hand waved that Toshiro Mifune (who George might actually listen to) put his foot down, forcing Lucas to change it. It's now that Obi Wan admits he was motivated by shame for failing to stop Anakin, fear that Luke might hold back or make the wrong decision, and guilt for his role in the whole tragedy. He gives a cliff notes version of Anakin's fall (which can be expanded on in the prequels), and apologizes for the deception. Luke might get a bit more training at this point.
Vader: I like the idea of Vader being a broken mess of self loathing who's painfully aware he destroyed his own life and commits evil largely because he feels its too late to ever go back. That stays, but Vader's turmoil is more apparent. Palpatine can comment that Vader's been different since Cloud City.
Han lives (but things with Harrison behind the scenes are resolved with less difficulty), but the action takes place on Kashyyyk rather than Endor (because Wookies are cool and it gives Chewie a purpose.)
Jabba Rescue: This still needs streamlining but I noticed the earlier concept art involved an arena. So I'm thinking that Luke and the others approach Jabba with money to release Han and call off the vendetta. Jabba however (whether for his own reasons or because the Empire asked him to) double crosses them after Han is freed, capturing Luke, Han and Lando and throwing them into an arena while keeping Leia as a slave girl. As it turns out, Luke saw this coming and secretly hid his lightsaber in R2D2 like in the actual movie (and also secretly took steps to ensure R2 couldn't have a restraining bolt put on him). This condenses the Rancor arena scene into the Sarlaac pit battle.
1.) Luke manages to get his lightsaber to him immediately in the fight and starts making mincemeat of Jabba's goons.
2.) Jabba unleashes the Rancor on the heroes......but Luke shows his versatility with the force by using it to calm the beast, which makes Jabba even MORE apoplectic to the point that he sets Boba Fett (Who's been standing to Jabba's side) into action.
3.) Luke and Boba get a pretty cool fight scene which ends with Luke defeating Boba (not sure if he lives or not; Luke could kill him or at the very least give him a massive beating.)
4.) Leia strangles the crap out of Jabba; Jabba's majordomo Bib Fortuna is there.....and simply stands aside to allow Leia to do the deed (there are scenes where Jabba's being rude and abusive to him, making this a DogBitesBack moment.) This gets the fighting to stop, and Bib lets them go.
Point of View: This is rightfully considered a copout and bad writing, so I think that it can be hand waved that Toshiro Mifune (who George might actually listen to) put his foot down, forcing Lucas to change it. It's now that Obi Wan admits he was motivated by shame for failing to stop Anakin, fear that Luke might hold back or make the wrong decision, and guilt for his role in the whole tragedy. He gives a cliff notes version of Anakin's fall (which can be expanded on in the prequels), and apologizes for the deception. Luke might get a bit more training at this point.
Vader: I like the idea of Vader being a broken mess of self loathing who's painfully aware he destroyed his own life and commits evil largely because he feels its too late to ever go back. That stays, but Vader's turmoil is more apparent. Palpatine can comment that Vader's been different since Cloud City.
Han lives (but things with Harrison behind the scenes are resolved with less difficulty), but the action takes place on Kashyyyk rather than Endor (because Wookies are cool and it gives Chewie a purpose.)
@LordYam Plus the Empire being beaten by Wookies on Kashyyyk instead of Ewoks on Endor would likely be seen as the Wookies being smart and badass instead of having the Empire being humiliated by Teddy Bear Guerrillas.