Not bad ideas change wise. Keeping tha ACP, while having it get rid of it's more radical members works perfectly for me.
Blue Skies in Camelot: An Alternate 60's and Beyond
- Thread starter President_Lincoln
- Start date
Any changes to the USSR you might have planned for the earlier chapters as of yet?
Ficboy
Banned
Let's hope that you can expand the timeline into the 1980s, 1990s, 2000s and the 2010s. There are many details that are promising. If I were you I would have changed specific details such as Star Wars' Obi-Wan Kenobi still being played by Alec Guinness (I can't even imagine anyone else but him playing the iconic Jedi Master), Marvel Comics' Mutants being the X-Men since Martin Goodman who controlled the company in OTL rejected the original name since he believed no one would even know what the term meant not to mention keeping the Original Five lineup as is (for obvious reasons even in an alternate 1960s), the American Conservative Party being a prominent nationwide third party of the United States similar to the National Conservative Party in No Southern Strategy, some historical figures surviving such as Barbara Streisand and Pierre Trudeau and the Manson murders cut down a bit but overall it's a satisfactory piece of work you've created. Your magnum opus.A very interesting set of questions, @TheDetailer! Thank you for raising them.
Che is, as you predict, more of a complex figure ITTL. This is, in large part, due to him escaping capture, torture, and death in 1967 here. Rather than becoming a sort of romantic martyr for left wing movements, (and subsequently, a counter-cultural icon), Che is treated by history and pop culture alike in more nuanced and subdued ways here. While his concern for the common people of Latin America, hatred of imperialism, and charisma have made him still beloved by some, he is widely considered a "dangerous" ideologue and authoritarian by his critics. His comments about the "Soviet betrayal of Cuba" after the Cuban Missile Crisis and the subsequent détente presided over by Kennedy and Khrushchev have painted him, in the eyes of many, as a hopeless extremist. His "no quarter" attitude toward capitalism has, largely, fallen out of fashion, though not entirely. He is, as of 1978, often quoted as speaking out against the "imperialism" of the USSR as he is the USA. He is often called by his supporters the "Red Robin Hood" while detractors (of both the left and right) call him the "Don Quixote of Communism".
A complicated man to be sure, Che's fate ITTL is largely quiet. As he aged into his forties and only narrowly avoided capture in Bolivia in 1967, he settled first in Allende's Chile, and later, returned to Havana, Cuba. Despite his frustration with his old comrade Fidel Castro's "pragmatism" and decision to side with the Soviet Union over the "more Revolutionary" People's Republic of China in the Sino-Soviet split, Guevara did not seek employment once again in Cuban government. Instead, he turned his attention toward his family and penning a series of memoirs, manifestos, and other texts, which chronicled his life as a "revolutionary adventurer" and would serve as the basis for several cult films released in the 1980s and 90s. In his writings, Guevara expressed "eternal solidarity" with the Cuban, Russian, and Chinese revolutions, but expressed "doubts" about the reform movements taking place within several Communist states around the world, as well as détente with the Western powers. His theories about communism would eventually lead him to become a key ideological figure in "Revolutionary Communist theory", which makes him sort of a Trotsky-like figure in what-if scenarios of history. While Che would continue to speak out in favor of his beliefs on occasion, he eventually passed away in Cuba in 1999, at the age of 71.
As for the fate of Cuba itself ITTL, it has largely followed its OTL path, joining the "Non-Aligned Movement" in the early 1970's in the wake of continued détente between the East and West. Relations with the US have yet to be normalized, and the discussion of such is still a non-starter in American politics, though there are early whispers of a thaw between Washington and Havana.
Hope this answers your questions, sir!
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I really hope this doesn't set up a Reagan victory in 1980 like OTL. Not only would that just seem way too similar, but it kind of ruin the optimistic tone that this timeline has always had going for it.As I have previously mentioned in some of my update posts, there are numerous changes I would like to make to the existing canon of this TL before I move into writing additional updates that move the narrative forward. While I plan to eventually re-write all of the chapters affected by these alterations, to do so immediately would take a rather unfortunate amount of time and energy. I promise I do plan on doing so at some time. But I would like to keep moving the story forward as well. As such, for your benefit (and submitted for your perusal/discussion), here are the first round of changes coming to Blue Skies in Camelot's canon in the near future:
As mentioned in the thread mark, this is only the first round of what will likely be several changes/alterations to come in the next few weeks. Please bear with me and feel free to discuss these and other possible alterations. While I know that they aren't as pleasant to read as (hopefully, anyway) my typical prose, I just wanted to make you, my beloved audience, aware of these decisions as they happen on my end.
- The 1964 Presidential Election
- Rather than have Governor Nelson Rockefeller as the Republican nominee in ‘64, I prefer the idea of JFK getting to have the issues-focused election he always wanted to win against his personal friend, Senator Barry Goldwater of Arizona. I believe that like IOTL against Johnson, Goldwater’s loss would be both a defeat and a rallying cry for conservatives across the nation, and would provide President Kennedy with the landslide he needs to strongly support new policy in his second term.
View attachment 586378View attachment 586379- The Cambodian Conflict
- While American involvement in Vietnam wound down significantly during President John F. Kennedy’s second term, this decision was controversial with the American public, many of whom still believed in “domino theory” and insisted that the Administration’s policy of “bolstering South Vietnam’s independence through aid and support” would not be enough to stop the spread of Communism in Southeast Asia. While history would be kind to the Kennedy Administration, especially following the events to come in the following years, his contemporaries were not as forgiving.
- The beginning of the Cambodian Civil War and JFK’s decision to limit American involvement to simply air support for the government in Phnom Penh proved controversial with the American people. Indeed, it became an issue on the campaign trail for the Democratic Presidential nominee, Senator Hubert Humphrey of Minnesota, who was forced to explain to the voters why the President was choosing not to “send in the troops”. Republican nominee George Romney or Michigan vowed to “stop at nothing to stop Communist advances in Indo-China” and, after winning a narrow victory in the Electoral College (while just barely losing the popular vote), followed through on that promise almost immediately.
- As is currently written, President Romney’s “triumvirate” of SecState Richard Nixon, SecDefense Omar Bradley, and National Security Advisor Henry Kissinger dedicated themselves completely to “total victory” over the Khmer Rouge. This meant not just escalating the bombing campaigns begun under the Kennedy Administration but expanding the war to include a land offensive into Northern Cambodian and invasions of Laos and pockets of North Vietnam. Though these campaigns were met with initial success, it quickly became apparent that the local populace did not want the American soldiers there, and saw them increasingly as imperialist occupiers. By 1971, halfway through President Romney’s term, the insurgency had grown virulent, and American casualty reports were being systematically hidden from the people back home by the Pentagon. This would be exposed by dedicated journalists in 1974, by which point, the interventions in Cambodia and later, Rhodesia, became horrifically unpopular, even anathema to the American public. Despite firing Nixon from his cabinet and Kissinger resigning in disgrace, now-President Bush was ultimately blamed for the catastrophic loss of life and hit to national morale. Though Bush managed to avoid suffering immediate political consequences for his administration’s actions, the anti-war movement proved especially valuable to Mo Udall’s landslide victory in 1976. During his last months in office, Bush managed to secure a cease-fire between the warring factions, but the war between Lon Nol and Pol Pot’s rival totalitarian regimes would continue for years afterward. This defeat of the American military-industrial complex would shape the national psyche for years to come.
View attachment 586380View attachment 586381View attachment 586382- During President Udall’s first year in office, the “smiling cowboy from Arizona” sought to mend the divides across the wounded nation. Draft dodgers were given pardons, American troops finished their return home from Southeast Asia and Africa, and the new Commander in Chief announced a new direction in American foreign policy, one dedicated primarily to the enforcement and primacy of universal human rights, rather than ideological warfare. Udall argued that the American people valued freedom above all else. And freedom meant allowing local populations the world over to decide how to govern themselves.
View attachment 586383
- Meanwhile, Udall also began the process of modernizing and reforming the American military, working with his SecDefense Cy Vance and a new generation of officers, such as General Colin Powell, to advocate judicious use of “soft power” and the development of a new doctrine of warfare to prevent “another Cambodia”.
- The Election of 1972
- While I like much of the writing I have done concerning American politics ITTL, (it has always been my central focus, after all), there is a fair bit I would like to change.
- For starters, I believe that it is likely too early in Governor Reagan’s political career to have him challenge a sitting US President in a primary, as he attempted to do to Romney here. Given Goldwater’s disastrous defeat at the hands of President Kennedy in ‘64 in this retcon, I believe conservatives in the GOP will lack the political capital to greatly affect the direction of the party at this stage. (Though they may in the future.)
- Instead, perhaps Reagan, who has already resisted efforts to get him to join the American Conservative Party, out of his belief that they “lack the national support to truly affect change", encourages President Bush to select Reagan’s good friend, and Governor of his neighboring state of Nevada, Paul Laxalt, as Bush's running-mate of a GOP “unity ticket” in 1972. This also has the added benefit of allowing Reagan to maintain his "political outsider" image. Due to immense public sympathy in the wake of President Romney’s assassination by Arthur Bremer, Bush and Laxalt easily defeat Texas Senator Lyndon Baines Johnson and Ohio Senator John Glenn at the ballot box. Laxalt, not Reagan, heads up the Bush Administration's inquiry into the CIA and MK-Ultra in 1975. Reagan continues on as Governor of California for a bit longer, and eyes a possible Presidential run, even against Bush if he runs again, in ‘76. Speaking of which…
View attachment 586384View attachment 586385- The Election of 1976:
- Rather than a primary challenge from Phyllis Schlafly, who, as I will get to in a moment, remains a member of the still-extant American Conservative Party, President Bush faces a primary challenge from former California Governor Ronald Reagan in 1976. Reagan accuses Bush of “capitulation to Communism” in Cambodia, and of “implicit acceptance of defeat against secularism and activists” at home. Reagan, rather successfully, brings the ACP into the fold in his primary run, and Bush only very narrowly fends Reagan off at the Convention in St. Louis.
- Despite Reagan’s narrow primary loss to Bush, he vows that “the American people have not seen the last of him” and continues to be the leading voice for the Conservative Movement in the GOP. Bush and Vice President Laxalt meanwhile, soldier on to November, where they are still defeated handily by Congressman Mo Udall of Arizona and Senator Lloyd Bentsen of Texas amidst a wave of populist anger about the Great Recession and distrust of the Republican Party in general. While this will nix Bentsen’s “you’re no Harry Truman” line in the VP debate that I used ITTL, perhaps Bentsen gets a chance to say something similar in the future…
- That pretty much, electorally, brings us to the present state of the TL (1978).
- The American Conservative Party
- In general, I feel that some of my choices regarding the ACP were quite rushed. I took what could have been an interesting opportunity for a major third party in the US and ran it into the ground rather quickly, perhaps because of my own IRL political beliefs. So, to retcon some additional things…
- After Governor George Wallace’s starring role in handing the 1968 Election to Governor Romney, the ACP, under the direction of National Chairman Jerry Falwell, Sr., began the process of weeding out its “openly radical” members, such as unabashed neo-Nazis, including George Lincoln Rockwell of Virginia. Rather than quickly imploding due to infighting, Falwell shepherds the party into a small, but nonetheless influential force in American politics, routinely holding between 10 and 25 seats in the House of Representatives and even a few seats in the Senate, while also fielding candidates for various local, statewide, and federal positions.
View attachment 586387View attachment 586388- Based primarily in the South, the party has slowly spread its influence to the heartland, where activists like the aforementioned Phyllis Schlafly (who is later elected to Congress as an ACP member) work to push local Republican politicians to the right if they have hopes of retaining their seats.
- Though they have failed (as of yet) to directly influence the outcome of Presidential elections as they did in ‘68 once more, the ACP did field candidates in both 1972 and 1976. These included:
- 1972: Businessman and President of the Coors Brewing Company, Joseph Coors of Colorado (with Alabama Senator John Sparkman as his running-mate). Coors is famously lampooned by contemporary comedians and others as "a little to the right of Attila-the-Hun".
- 1976: Former Governor Mills E. Godwin of Virginia (with Illinois Representative Phyllis Schlafly as his running mate).
- As of 1978, the ACP remains an active force in American Politics, often using their activist and media wings to denounce President Udall and his progressive policies. Party chairman Falwell is considering the possibility that if Ronald Reagan wins the GOP nomination in 1980, he may announce a first-in-the-history-of-the-ACP "endorsement ticket" and make Reagan the ACP's nominee as well.
- The UK in Rhodesia
- Broad strokes: The (Randolph) Churchill and subsequent Thatcher governments experienced initial victory, followed by insurgency and stagnation in the Commonwealth of Rhodesia throughout the 1970s. While the fledgling Commonwealth government would eventually win victory over the various Communist-backed militias (including those led by Robert Mugabe and his supporters), Rhodesia’s role in the Commonwealth would continue to prove a source of contention for decades to come. Furthermore, while the US-UK alliance may have been strengthened by American troops’ involvement in Rhodesia, widespread public antipathy toward that conflict (as well as the one in Cambodia) would lead subsequent American administrations to once again be more suspicious of any “adventurous” foreign policy on the part of Britain.
As always, I only ask that you be polite and civil with each other and myself and that you respect all rules of this site.
I’d say let him keep Mifune as Obi-wan. It, along with Captain Sulu, makes for some great earlier representation for Asians.
Ficboy
Banned
Captain Sulu I would retain. But I would want Obi-Wan to be still Guinness himself since he brings a lot of charisma and talent not to mention his voice and appearance.
Not to be harsh, but if you can’t handle the idea of Star Wars being different, as also shown by your behaviour on the Two Suns Shall Set thread, then maybe you shouldn’t be on AH.com?
Also, appearance? What’s wrong with Mifune? 😛
Ficboy
Banned
Well I'm fine with things being different to be sure and I do like alternate history. It only ever really applies to looking at the event if it doesn't change much for others or any good reason for butterflies. While Toshiro Mifune is certainly talented as seen with some of his movies, Alec Guinness is Obi-Wan Kenobi and he embodies the role as much as Ewan McGregor and James Arnold Taylor giving us iconic lines in various media. Mifune in OTL turned down the rule of Obi-Wan because he thought it would cheapen the samurai genre which was one of the influences of Star Wars and almost all of his filmography is in Japanese except Shogun not to mention he didn't have much experience with sci-fi/fantasy compared to Guinness who was Doctor Who in TTL and was around much longer than the former.
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While I don't want to give anything away in the way of spoilers, I will say that many of the factors that led to Reagan's OTL victory in 1980 are simply not present in the world of Blue Skies in Camelot. First and foremost, by 1978, the economy has finally begun to recover from the depths of the Great Recession and inflation is greatly reduced and under control. Udall's personal magnetism, charisma, and integrity make him very popular to the American people, and as of yet, there have not been any great flare ups in foreign policy that could serve to undermine him. As many have mentioned, Iran is yet to have its Revolution, but even there, it could (and likely will, without Khomeini's influence) go very differently ITTL. While I would caution against saying Udall has re-election "in the bag", I would say that he would be a tough incumbent to beat to even the strongest challenger. Also bear in mind, Reagan, despite being the leader of the Conservative wing of his party, has yet to secure the nomination. He will face several other Republicans who believe their direction is the best for the future of the GOP.
Thank you for the feedback, @Ficboy, but I have to agree with @TheDetailer here. In addition to being a great early representation for Asians in popular culture, Mifune's presence in Star Wars would also go a long way toward introducing him and his earlier work to mainstream western audiences. As for butterflies to allow for Mifune's change of heart on the role, I explain in the chapter about the first film that Lucas personally spoke with Mifune ITTL to explain the concept of the Jedi and promised to maintain respect for the Samurai who helped inspire the idea. Though Mifune is still reluctant, his daughter is fascinated with the concept of the film and helps convince him to give it a chance. Mifune learns English for the role and like Guinness IOTL, his presence on set helps encourage the younger cast to give their best performances possible.
I apologize that TTL's Obi-Wan will be a little different from OTL. I know sometimes castings and other decisions come about in a TL that you won't like or will disagree with, and that's totally cool!
Part of the fun of discussion is coming to places where you have to respectfully disagree. While IRL, I love Guinness and McGregor as Kenobi, I like the idea of giving other possibilities a chance in Alt-History. If we only adhere to changing things we don't like, rather than a healthy mix of both, I feel it keeps the TL from diverging too much. Part of the fun of Alt-History is to ask "What if?". I hope this choice does not severely lessen your enjoyment of the TL as a whole. But I'm sticking to my authorial guns on this one.Ficboy
Banned
So who will play Obi-Wan Kenobi in TTL's Prequel Trilogy? It's going to be a young Asian actor rather than Ewan McGregor. I would have liked to see James Earl Jones voice Darth Vader since George Lucas wanted a lesser known actor for the role in OTL. Granted I know this is an alternate timeline but sometimes things will still be the same regardless of the consequences. Star Wars is probably going to be more or less the same like our world aside from one major casting change or two.While I don't want to give anything away in the way of spoilers, I will say that many of the factors that led to Reagan's OTL victory in 1980 are simply not present in the world of Blue Skies in Camelot. First and foremost, by 1978, the economy has finally begun to recover from the depths of the Great Recession and inflation is greatly reduced and under control. Udall's personal magnetism, charisma, and integrity make him very popular to the American people, and as of yet, there have not been any great flare ups in foreign policy that could serve to undermine him. As many have mentioned, Iran is yet to have its Revolution, but even there, it could (and likely will, without Khomeini's influence) go very differently ITTL. While I would caution against saying Udall has re-election "in the bag", I would say that he would be a tough incumbent to beat to even the strongest challenger. Also bear in mind, Reagan, despite being the leader of the Conservative wing of his party, has yet to secure the nomination. He will face several other Republicans who believe their direction is the best for the future of the GOP.
Thank you for the feedback, @Ficboy, but I have to agree with @TheDetailer here. In addition to being a great early representation for Asians in popular culture, Mifune's presence in Star Wars would also go a long way toward introducing him and his earlier work to mainstream western audiences. As for butterflies to allow for Mifune's change of heart on the role, I explain in the chapter about the first film that Lucas personally spoke with Mifune ITTL to explain the concept of the Jedi and promised to maintain respect for the Samurai who helped inspire the idea. Though Mifune is still reluctant, his daughter is fascinated with the concept of the film and helps convince him to give it a chance. Mifune learns English for the role and like Guinness IOTL, his presence on set helps encourage the younger cast to give their best performances possible.
I apologize that TTL's Obi-Wan will be a little different from OTL. I know sometimes castings and other decisions come about in a TL that you won't like or will disagree with, and that's totally cool!
Wait a minute regarding Toshiro Mifune's daughter its Mika in OTL and she was born in 1982 if I recall five years after A New Hope came out so she would not be able to get her father and Lucas to play Obi-Wan Kenobi.
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I have several ideas in mind. For the sake of keeping things relatively streamlined in the order of our narrative, I have refrained from getting into detail about it. In fact, all I have revealed about the future of Star Wars ITTL so far is the following:
- TTL's version of The Empire Strikes Back will hit theaters in 1980, and be largely the same as OTLs, though with Orson Welles returning as the voice of Vader. (I will give more details when the overall narrative reaches 1980).
- Due to not being in conflict with the Directors' Guild of America, George Lucas manages to get his good friend Steven Spielberg to sign on to direct the as-of-yet untitled third film, which will release in 1983.
Ficboy
Banned
Yes, expand this timeline. As I said, I would have tried to keep some things the same if I were you but at least try to explore a different, divergent path. Plus, I would really love to contribute to the timeline by writing a story or two about the BSiC Universe as long as it sticks to the canon and I've PMed some ideas you might utilize.I have several ideas in mind. For the sake of keeping things relatively streamlined in the order of our narrative, I have refrained from getting into detail about it. In fact, all I have revealed about the future of Star Wars ITTL so far is the following:
Like with other threads of the TL, I don't like to announce events/ideas that are years or decades down the line just yet. I know this TL is moving slowly at the moment, but I hope it will be up and running again soon. Hopefully, we will be able to help it cover the 90's, 2000's, and beyond as many of you have expressed your own desires that it do.
- TTL's version of The Empire Strikes Back will hit theaters in 1980, and be largely the same as OTLs, though with Orson Welles returning as the voice of Vader. (I will give more details when the overall narrative reaches 1980).
- Due to not being in conflict with the Directors' Guild of America, George Lucas manages to get his good friend Steven Spielberg to sign on to direct the as-of-yet untitled third film, which will release in 1983.
This is very reassuring to hear. I must confess one of the great numbers of reasons I love this TL aside from its optometric tone and your own well-done characterization and poetic prose is the continuation of the two main political parties as big tent parties. I would love to see all 3 major political parties survive to this day. Particularity with the Republican Pary evolving into a centrist party with a Rockefeller liberal wing and a Goldwater Libertarian wing to balance it out. As for the Democrats my hopes are they keep following Udall's and become something in the vein of a social democratic party, but still big tent enough to have a Johnson esque populist wing to keep them nationally relevant. Finally, I do hope ACP manages to survive to the present day even if it is only as a vehicle for
I think the change for the Cambodian War from clear victory to Vietnamesque quagmire is much more fitting. After all, the idea of a quick victory in Cambodia kind of removes the significance of avoiding entanglement in the Vietnam War, as the argument could be made that Vietnam could also have been won with American troops instead of left abandoned surrounded in Red. However, is there anything that distinguishes the Cambodian War from the Vietnam War? Or is the Cambodian War simply the Vietnam War for this TL? Also, about the counterculture movement, how would you portray them? The Vietnam War was a major part of their development, and without it, how would they develop differently? Would they focus more on civil rights? Would there even be hippies in the 60s, or will there be a continuation of beatnik culture?
Well, I can imagine the pro-War crowd could have more justification due to who the boys overseas are fighting...
The thing about Rhodesia was that in 1975 Mozambique and Angola gained independence, which gave the guerilla's exactly what they needed to have attacks launched en masse. It's what really turned the tide against the Smith regime. So there IS a bit of a deadline on that score. You can keep Mugabe's downfall in 1973, but that's going to probably cause the guerrillas to coalesce around Joshua Nkomo, which may open its own challenges.
You can keep the elections occurring in 1973 after Mugabe's fall, and even Muzorewa's victory, but I still think the other factions are going to just dismiss Muzorewa as a pawn of the white establishment and keep fighting. Muzorewa's going to have his hands full trying to stabilize things.
As for Lucas.....the Director's Guild might have some issues. They didn't go after him for the first star wars because they thought the movie would fail so they didn't see the point. With ESB guaranteed to be a smash success they might push back more. Though bad publicity might force the Guild to let it go. Others might accuse them of being unreasonable.
You can keep the elections occurring in 1973 after Mugabe's fall, and even Muzorewa's victory, but I still think the other factions are going to just dismiss Muzorewa as a pawn of the white establishment and keep fighting. Muzorewa's going to have his hands full trying to stabilize things.
As for Lucas.....the Director's Guild might have some issues. They didn't go after him for the first star wars because they thought the movie would fail so they didn't see the point. With ESB guaranteed to be a smash success they might push back more. Though bad publicity might force the Guild to let it go. Others might accuse them of being unreasonable.
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I like these changes. I was unsure about a lot of the elements of the 1976 Election and Bush Presidency and this has made it much more plausible imo.
Ficboy
Banned
The best case scenario for Rhodesia/Zimbabwe is if it were like Lebanon in which both Muslims and Christians share control of the government.