Blue Skies in Camelot: An Alternate 60's and Beyond

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by President_Lincoln, Nov 29, 2017.

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  1. President_Lincoln The Great Emancipator

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    Similar to IOTL, Khrushchev passed away of a heart attack in September of 1971. Unlike IOTL however, he was given a magnificent state funeral and full honors by the Andropov regime. He was buried in the Kremlin, memorial pieces were written in Pravda, as well as Western papers. Most famously of all, former President John F. Kennedy wrote a touching eulogy for Khrushchev which he submitted as an "editorial" of sorts to the Boston Globe.

    In his eulogy, Kennedy said of Khrushchev:

    "He opened the door and windows of a tomb-like Soviet state, petrified by Stalinism, and let in fresh ideas and the possibility of peace and progress. He was never a perfect leader, nor a faultless man. I disagreed with many of the things he did. But he was a tremendous leader, and I will always hold him as my partner on the road to a more peaceful world."
     
  2. President Earl Warren Well-Known Member

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    So one question on the Sino Soviet split, how is Zhou rationalizing the about face to Socialist market economy? Is he doing what they did in OTL (saying he was 60 percent right and 30 percent wrong) it are they taking a different path? Also if the Soviet Embassy can be bombed for "revisonism" that makes me more than A bit anxious about what may happen if they decide to go after the "traitors and revisionists who cozy up to the USA"
     
  3. LordandsaviorKloka Son of Gondor

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    Assuming A Star is Born still gets made,who replaces Barbra?
     
  4. Unknown Member

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  5. Worffan101 Ain't done nothing if I ain't been called a Red

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    What exactly is the structure of the reforming Chinese economy? Is Zhou trying a shift to locally-run cooperatives or some kind of heavily state-regulated semi-privatized thing going on?
     
  6. arrowiv Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if the 1976 Montreal Olympics in this TL are more better organized in this TL than in TL. Of course, we will still have Nadia and Bruce/Caitlyn but probably the host country Canada winning some gold as well ( they did not in RL, regretfully). Also a better organized Montreal Olympiad would have better financing and more corporate sponsorship. Don't forget it just about took twenty years just to get the roof finished on the Montreal Olympic Stadium!
     
  7. Pokemon Master What's it to you?

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    and that may lead to the chance of the Montreal Expos staying around ITTL
     
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  8. Worffan101 Ain't done nothing if I ain't been called a Red

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    One thing Zhou could do to fix the Chinese economy is to institute a form of workers' self-management. Basically, have the state-owned industries and the central planners open dialogue with representatives of various industrial and agricultural communities. The government essentially negotiates with the people to figure out how to go forward with the economy. Downside for Zhou is that this makes keeping control of the state more difficult long-term and is very much against the precepts of Stalinist/Maoist communism, and could limit the speed of industrial development, plus side is that it means much less energy needs to be wasted suppressing dissent and industrial development will likely be more stable and sustainable.

    Another good idea would be a massive education initiative--one focused on educating the populace as a whole rather than re-instituting hypercompetitive exams. If he front-loads this with subtle government propaganda, he can probably mix this with self-management to raise the next generation as loyal and reasonably educated Party men. It won't last forever but it buys time for the Party and state without forcing them to borrow heavily to support a massive industrial program and nationalist propaganda initiative, and reduces the need for cartoon villain levels of repression.
     
  9. Electric Monk Does Your Believing For You

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    The Los Angeles level of corporate sponsorship wasn’t considered as far as I know. Both arrogance and incompetence. The additional burdens of corruption and criminal involvement will likely make the issue intractable. Obviously many of the specific local issues and political players may be changed—but like best case is still expensive and corrupt. I might have missed it, is it confirmed Montreal still gets them ITTL?

    (Quick background reading for those unfamiliar with the problems. I lived in Montreal for half a decade and will attest that people’s memories of it were even worse than described below lol.)
    Montreal Gazette
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
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  10. arrowiv Well-Known Member

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    I have also read that the other candidate besides Montreal when the IOC bestowed the 1976 Games award in 1970 was none other than LA!
    One other way to make the 1976 Montreal Olympiad to be more successful is to not to have the New Zealand All Blacks rugby team touring South Africa so soon after the 1976 Soweto uprising. That tour resulted in a big walkout by African nations for the 1976 games.
     
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  11. TheDetailer Fan of Mythical Creatures and Alternate History

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    What will happen with Spitting Image ITTL?
     
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  12. JamesHunter Well-Known Member

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    Well that's a decade away. Probably very different people being parodied but its usual self otherwise?
     
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  13. USS_Ward Well-Known Member

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    Did the RN get the funds to refit and modernize HMS Eagle and Ark Royal in this timeline? If so the Falklands may go differently for the brits this time.
     
  14. Threadmarks: Clarification on Zhou's Reforms

    President_Lincoln The Great Emancipator

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    upload_2019-10-9_12-8-54.jpeg

    Essentially, Zhou is performing similar reforms to the ones Alexei Kosygin and his supporters in the Soviet Union passed ITTL's Mid-1960's. Namely, Zhou is introducing reforms to move the PRC's economy toward the model of market socialism. What this means, in practice, is continued state ownership and supervision of the commanding heights of the economy: heavy industry; energy; and infrastructure; while simultaneously decentralizing decision making, which will give local leaders and managers more freedom to make decisions and respond to the actual needs of the people on the ground. (Similar to the programs you described above, @Worffan101!) Basic entrepreneurship and private ownership are slowly being experimented with in the service sector and other lighter industries, and the market is, for the first time in the PRC, allowed to set prices for consumer goods and agricultural products. No longer forced into harsh collectivization, farmers are allowed to sell some of their products on the open market, and even keep some of their profit as incentive to increase and improve their productivity. While you're right that this could lead to future difficulties controlling the state and is largely an about-face on Maoist Communism, Zhou has always been more pragmatic than ideological. While these reforms have not led to freely floating prices on all goods, they have already shown a marked improvement in output and growth over Mao's centralized, Stalinist model. Though this style of policy was overturned ITTL's Soviet Union during Yuri Andropov's takeover in 1968, just as they were starting to markedly improve the Soviet economy, Zhou hopes, as he slowly withers away from cancer, that his successors will leave his reforms in place, and allow China to grow in a more moderate, "sane" direction.

    I do think Zhou would likely also institute major reforms in education, as you point out, Worffan. This will likely manifest as a "common school" movement, with a strong emphasis on technical literacy and, as you mention, more subtle government propaganda. Zhou was not perfect, nor was he above using force to put down protests, but it is definitely in line with his more serene methodology to try and prevent riots and protests before they occur. As TTL's 1970's reach their later half, Zhou's efforts to reform education in China have produced mixed results, as many in the more poor and rural segments of the country continue to lag behind the west (especially a dominant USA). That being said, the country is slowly, but surely recovering from the failures of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution. By the time of Zhou's passing on January 8th, 1978, the People's Republic of China was already showing signs of renewed strength. His successor, Hu Yaobang, would continue to pursue market socialist reforms and increased political liberalization as the 1980's approached.

    upload_2019-10-9_12-23-21.jpeg
     
  15. Worffan101 Ain't done nothing if I ain't been called a Red

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    Oh boy, this is gonna be a fun ride... :)
     
  16. Darth_Kiryan The Númenorean Sith

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    Will Zhou do a better job than Deng OTL?
     
  17. AeroTheZealousOne Forever in debt to your priceless advice

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    The better question to ask would be "Will Hu Yaobang do a better job than Deng OTL?", since it's been hinted at immensely that Zhou Enlai does not have all that long to live ITTL.

    And now I'll be resisting the urge to joke about the mere concept of "Titoist China", even if this isn't the most accurate label to apply to this world's China of the '70s and '80s.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019 at 3:59 PM
  18. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    So would it be Maoism with a Titoist flavor?
     
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  19. Worffan101 Ain't done nothing if I ain't been called a Red

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    More like a flimsy veneer of democracy and some legitimate concern for the people to cover for the state apparatus that is by now entrenched.
     
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  20. Bookmark1995 Bookmark95 Reborn!

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    "Yes, my comrades, you have a choice. A choice between....getting shot and not getting shot. Sound fair?"
     
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