Blue Skies in Camelot: An Alternate 60's and Beyond

[Unknown]

Well, Hoover's dead; good riddance to him...

Like the characterization of Romney here and, well, Earl Butz being a...well...asshole doesn't surprise me (if Earl were in the same room as Berry Gordy after those comments, Berry would knock him out without a second thought)...

I'm rooting for LBJ, too; I wonder who Arthur Bremer is going to target ITTL, with George Wallace out of the race...

"For All We Know" was a cover version of a song sung by Larry Meredith for the movie Lovers and Other Strangers that was covered by the Carpenters and released in January of 1971, so congrats for continuing the pattern (BTW, hope Karen manages to live longer ITTL)...

Waiting for more, @President_Lincoln...

 

[President_Lincoln]

Love it. Hoover's gone, and election season begins. Excerpts of MLK's testimony, when you can write them out.

Glad you liked the update, historybuff! I'll be sure to type up some of Dr. King's testimony when I get a chance, including the bits you've sent to me.

LBJ! LBJ! LBJ for the USA!

Chisholm's got no chance, but LBJ could offer her a place as a Secretary (State might be a bit high, but Interior would be a good option).

I like how you're writing Romney here, as a basically decent guy who wants to be a good leader but doesn't have the willingness to get his hands dirty that a Party leader needs. He's certainly getting moderate support but he risks another ACP incident (despite that party's humiliating collapse) if he's seen as too harsh on members of his own party. Sometimes, you have to show token restraint to Party members even if you're disgusted by them and want them gone.

Fingers crossed for LBJ 1972! One interesting thing coming up--assuming that the 26th still happened--is the lowered voting age, which will make appealing to younger demographics much more important, which means tacking left since young voters trend left. Johnson's going to be much stronger than McGovern OTL due to his demeanor and appeal to the lower-class base, which means he stands a good chance.

Also, did McGovern-Fraser happen? Because without Bobby Kennedy's assassination and the fallout, the presidential nomination process could easily be much more opaque than it is OTL. One way to solve this could be to have a scandal surrounding a rigged nomination in one of the parties (maybe upper-class Democrats try to sabotage LBJ and Chisholm and LBJ protests? Or the Republicans, who're already looking pretty split, have a similar kind of crisis?), which then forces the expansion of the primary system.

Thank you so much, Worffan! I'm really thrilled to hear that you guys are enjoying the characterization of President Romney thus far. Your description here is exactly what I'm going for and I'm glad to hear that that's coming across. As a politician, Romney is something of an interesting case. His personal ethics, moralistic attitude, and penchant for bi-partisan executive leadership were exactly the sort of qualities that made him a successful Governor of an industrialized swing state, but they can present challenges as you say, now that he's trying to lead a deeply divided national political party. The demise of the ACP has left the Republican Party with the opportunity to pick up social conservatives, but Romney is dragging his feet in some instances because doing so would go against his personal beliefs, something he is loathe to do. Romney is much more interested in governing than campaigning, but of course in the U.S. you can't have one without the other.

As for LBJ, Chisholm, and the other Democrats, their primary season is going to be very interesting this year. With the President seeming very beatable and the nation in an uncertain mood, it could be anyone's chance to catapult themselves into the White House. The 26th Amendment was still ratified (though ITTL it is the 25th Amendment), meaning Johnson and the others will need to appeal to young people in addition to other demographics if they want to sew themselves up a victory. As for LBJ's chances, I won't elaborate here beyond saying that even as the sole southern candidate, he's got a long way to go before the convention...

Well, Hoover's dead; good riddance to him...

Like the characterization of Romney here and, well, Earl Butz being a...well...asshole doesn't surprise me (if Earl were in the same room as Berry Gordy after those comments, Berry would knock him out without a second thought)...

I'm rooting for LBJ, too; I wonder who Arthur Bremer is going to target ITTL, with George Wallace out of the race...

"For All We Know" was a cover version of a song sung by Larry Meredith for the movie Lovers and Other Strangers that was covered by the Carpenters and released in January of 1971, so congrats for continuing the pattern (BTW, hope Karen manages to live longer ITTL)...

Waiting for more, @President_Lincoln...

Thank you, Unknown! The streak lives on!

 

[TheImperialTheorist]

I still think that SOB Hoover deserved a more harsh fate, but at least the ass has gone to hell and the FBI isn’t much of a threat.

Romney seems like a decent guy in this TL, a man willing to do good, even if there are struggles against him. Meanwhile, the conservatives seem ready to dump him for Reagan as soon as they have the chance. I do ‘t think they would be willing to break ranks and form a third party (we’ve seen the last time it happened), but I bet many YAF will support Reagan over Romney, perhaps in colorful ways.

Too bad Kennedy’s not running, but LBJ, Humphrey, Muskie, and “Scoop” will certainly make for an interesting race. Personally, I wish to see LBJ win because I’d just love to see him fight against the Republican candidate. We might even be able to see some of that good old “Johnson treatment.”

Great update! Can’t wait to see what’s going on in Cambodia.

 

[Gerbbro]

Great update! Here's to LBJ in '72! All the Way!

 

[Alpha-King98760]

I’d vote for LBJ!!

 

[historybuff]

Not sure who I'd vote for myself yet.

 

[President_Lincoln]

I still think that SOB Hoover deserved a more harsh fate, but at least the ass has gone to hell and the FBI isn’t much of a threat.

Romney seems like a decent guy in this TL, a man willing to do good, even if there are struggles against him. Meanwhile, the conservatives seem ready to dump him for Reagan as soon as they have the chance. I do ‘t think they would be willing to break ranks and form a third party (we’ve seen the last time it happened), but I bet many YAF will support Reagan over Romney, perhaps in colorful ways.

Too bad Kennedy’s not running, but LBJ, Humphrey, Muskie, and “Scoop” will certainly make for an interesting race. Personally, I wish to see LBJ win because I’d just love to see him fight against the Republican candidate. We might even be able to see some of that good old “Johnson treatment.”

Great update! Can’t wait to see what’s going on in Cambodia.

I agree wholeheartedly, ImperialTheorist. At least the FBI has been given some additional oversight and the nation can start to hopefully heal and rebuild its law enforcement agencies and institutions in a more honest manner. I've felt (from the moment I decided to have Romney become President here) that he would struggle against dissent from within his own party. At a time when the GOP is leaning ever rightward, even with the collapse of the ACP, here is a moderate trying to hold onto the party of Dewey-Eisenhower-Rockefeller. Romney just wants to be a good public servant. Ideological posturing, in his mind, prevents that, and thus he's striving to keep everyone happy and just "do his job". Whether or not that strategy pays off? We'll have to see...

Great update! Here's to LBJ in '72! All the Way!

I’d vote for LBJ!!

LBJ is quite popular with you guys! Interesting and duly noted.

 

[Worffan101]

Thank you so much, Worffan! I'm really thrilled to hear that you guys are enjoying the characterization of President Romney thus far. Your description here is exactly what I'm going for and I'm glad to hear that that's coming across. As a politician, Romney is something of an interesting case. His personal ethics, moralistic attitude, and penchant for bi-partisan executive leadership were exactly the sort of qualities that made him a successful Governor of an industrialized swing state, but they can present challenges as you say, now that he's trying to lead a deeply divided national political party. The demise of the ACP has left the Republican Party with the opportunity to pick up social conservatives, but Romney is dragging his feet in some instances because doing so would go against his personal beliefs, something he is loathe to do. Romney is much more interested in governing than campaigning, but of course in the U.S. you can't have one without the other.

As for LBJ, Chisholm, and the other Democrats, their primary season is going to be very interesting this year. With the President seeming very beatable and the nation in an uncertain mood, it could be anyone's chance to catapult themselves into the White House. The 26th Amendment was still ratified (though ITTL it is the 25th Amendment), meaning Johnson and the others will need to appeal to young people in addition to other demographics if they want to sew themselves up a victory. As for LBJ's chances, I won't elaborate here beyond saying that even as the sole southern candidate, he's got a long way to go before the convention...

Yeah, I'm psyched to see how this goes!

Romney TTL seems to be ending up similar to Johnson OTL for different reasons; while Johnson was a great domestic leader, his foreign policy was almost criminally incompetent, whereas Romney is decent on foreign policy but can't keep a handle on his party. Just too nice of a man for the job, kinda like Jimmy Carter.

The West Wing-esque biopic about him will be popular at the Oscars in 20-30 years TTL.

 

[Gerbbro]

LBJ is quite popular with you guys! Interesting and duly noted

Oh dear. Is he getting Bremmered then?

 

[President_Lincoln]

Yeah, I'm psyched to see how this goes!

Romney TTL seems to be ending up similar to Johnson OTL for different reasons; while Johnson was a great domestic leader, his foreign policy was almost criminally incompetent, whereas Romney is decent on foreign policy but can't keep a handle on his party. Just too nice of a man for the job, kinda like Jimmy Carter.

The West Wing-esque biopic about him will be popular at the Oscars in 20-30 years TTL.

Awesome! I'd personally love to see a biopic of TTL's President Romney.

Oh dear. Is he getting Bremmered then?

I can't comment on future plot developments, though Arthur Bremer could still tragically make an appearance ITTL.

 

[King_Arthur]

Great update. Personally I'm rooting for Romney and I wouldn't mind if either Scoop or Muskie won the Dem convention.

 

[Windows95]

Johnson post-Presidency was blunt in his criticism of trickle down economics.

 

[Md139115]

It occurs to me that one of the most popular conspiracy theories ITTL is probably going to be that Hoover’s heart attack was not natural.

 

[Hot Dad]

Lbj all the way baby, if only for the pants phone call to be cannon

 

[Thomas Dewey]

I really want to see Romney get re-elected somehow. While he doesn't always make the most strategic choices when it comes to politics, he is willing to compromise, has actually been fairly successful in regards to getting things done, and is certainly the most morally upstanding of any of the assembled candidates. Perhaps some great foreign policy success (maybe pertaining to the meeting with the Soviets?) will give him a boost.

 

[Windows95]

612 - Remarks to Members of the Business Council.
December 4, 1968

Now I know that prosperity is not the complete answer to America's problems. But anyone who thinks we can solve these problems without a strong and healthy economy just does not understand the world we live in. What we have tried to build in the last 7 1/2 years is a rich nation that is able to exercise its social conscience.

When I first entered public life, America was torn by two opposing economic theories: the "trickle-down" theory and the "sock-it-to-'em" theory.

The "trickle-down" theory argued that all America needed was prosperity for the business community and the money would eventually find its way down to the people at the bottom of the economic ladder.

It worked just like it sounded. By the time the money got down to the poor people, it was nothing more than a trickle--a drip, and that was when things were prosperous. If we had a recession, the money stopped altogether.

It's like the farmer said down in my part of the country about the Great Depression: "It wouldn't have been so bad if it hadn't come right in the middle of hard times."

The "sock-it-to-'em" theory called for a heavy taxation of profits and a reduction of the living standards of the middle-income and upper-income families to raise living standards for the poor.

But this becomes dangerous if you carry it too far. If you take too much away from the top, you discourage industrial expansion, which creates new jobs and you slow the expansion of the economy as a whole, which creates even more jobs, and more money.

The Last Days of the President
July 1973

Johnson had decidedly mixed emotions about his successor. He was puzzled by Nixon's cold style ("Imagine not inviting one member of Congress to Tricia's wedding. If you don't respect them, they won't respect you") and aghast at some of Nixon's domestic policies. Shortly after leaving the White House, he remarked to a Texas businessman: "When I took over the presidency, Jack Kennedy had left me a stock market of 711. When I left the White House, it was over 900. Now look at it. That's what happens when the Republicans take over—not only Nixon, but any of them. They simply don't know how to manage the economy. They're so busy operating the trickle-down theory, giving the richest corporations the biggest break, that the whole thing goes to hell in a handbasket." Amused staffers recall that on the trip back to Texas aboard Air Force One, Johnson went up and down the aisles giving financial advice: "Keep all your money in cash," he urged. "Nixon will have us in an inflationary recession before his first year is over." (He had also, he told me, given his outgoing Cabinet members a different, if equally sobering, kind of advice: "Each of you had better leave this town clean as Eisenhower's hound's tooth. The first thing Democrats do when they take power is find where the control levers are. But the first thing Republicans do is investigate Democrats. I don't know why they do it but you can count on it.")

@President_Lincoln

This is the quotes or something analogous to it when Johnson is running as President that you can use.

 

[PresidentZinn]

I'm rooting for LBJ, too; I wonder who Arthur Bremer is going to target ITTL, with George Wallace out of the race...

@President_Lincoln...

You say that as if Bremer was cosmically preordained to be an assassin.

At this point we’re 8 years out from a major POD with wild and far-reaching butterflies that radically altered the lives of hundreds of millions of people relative to OTL. I think that to somehow expect that an individual’s life trajectory, which itself is heavily dependent on one’s environment and the surrounding historical and sociological currents, would somehow lead to the same life outcome as in OTL (in this case as a would-be presidential assassin in the 1972 election) is a highly unrealistic assumption.

In writing alternate history, especially when focusing on 20th century politics, writers often succumb to the error of including the same improbable tropes in their TLs as those that acted as significant historical turning points in OTL. For example, TLs with PODs before 1900 will often have WWI start in 1914 under the same circumstances, or have a depression start in 1929. The probabilities of such events so closely matching OTL become increasingly unlikely the further away we get from a POD, and this is especially so if the divergence is as consequential as in this TL.

So much of history has chaotically turned on the head of a coin, so it is crucial that we not underestimate the extraordinary power of the butterfly effect in influencing life outcomes.

 

[John Spangler]

Good riddance, Hoover. You won't be missed.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Not much to say except...great stuff! And go LBJ

 

[AeroTheZealousOne]

Alrighty! Loved the update and the second downfall of Hoover! (The first was... Well, he got fired.) Now it's time for my commentary on a few things:

Romney, fatigued by the air of suspicion still lingering over his branch of Government and also offended personally by Butz’ comment did not even ask for his underling’s resignation, but in fact fired him immediately.

Serves him right. Romney did the right thing here no matter what anyone else says about it. For a moment. The next appointee should be the ghost of Henry Wallace for this position.

Not sure who I'd vote for myself yet.

Forget the LBJ Bandwagon, if John Glenn isn't a candidate sometime in the 70s then I'm just going to write him in anyway. Or maybe I will give Romney a second term, who knows?

Johnson post-Presidency was blunt in his criticism of trickle down economics.

That and it didn't stop Phil Ochs from criticizing him in his music.

It occurs to me that one of the most popular conspiracy theories ITTL is probably going to be that Hoover’s heart attack was not natural.

I am not at a computer I can't make a meme image, but is that a Death Note on President Romney's desk?

Like Unknown, I am waiting for more...